> The fact that Lunar regiments are religious as well as mundane entities (as
> are most groups of more than x people in Glorantha) means that the
> careerists will be high in the regiment cult, and even if they are
> traditionally subservient to Moonson or Yelm Imperator types, the political
> appointee risks a serious magical backlash if he ignores his NCOs.
I kind of like the idea that the regimental spirit of retribution would be
some nasty, vile NCO that was too mean to die. Ignore the professionals
and it manifests, screaming "Frag the legate! Frag the legate!"
> However I think that for the Imperial Bodyguard and Heortland corps
> the posts are political, and the prestige of leading one of this units is
> payed in cash. In normal situations the Imperial Treasury pays the troops
> (with delays, money lost in some intermediaries, new equipment "forgotten"
> proportionally to the distance to Glamour).
Fair enough. Frex, from my trollish POV, these guys are unbelievably
organized, so I'm probably just in awe of 'em. I suppose the difference is
made up when the unit is rotated back to the Heartland for re-building
after the war's over, and the Empire gets its share of the booty.
> Also remember that the Thirty Years War troops usually went by foot, in
> distances much greater than Genertela.
I was thinking in regards to the different campaigns the Hapsburgs fought
all over the place -- obviously, they didn't march armies from Denmark to
southern Italy, frex. I highly doubt the "distances greater than
Genertela", but you're right, there was local movement, mostly
by land (sometimes by sea, if convenient), and Belgium to Austria isn't
exactly a short stroll.
> Genertela is really small. And the
> Lunars have Magic roads to transport troops south faster.
I hadn't heard that before -- if it's not canon, it should be! Or a spell
that makes them march faster, or something. Some big neat ritual. Or
special roads just for the army.
> All of this of course is IMO, and only for the real professionals
> (IB, HC). And historically almost any army well payed had more loyalty to
> their commanders than to their kings, even the Romans. Specially the Romans
> And the problem with your scenario is that getting Jar-Eel in your
> side is a synonim of being the "rightful" Red Emperor.
Well, what can I say? Fazzur's good looking, brainy _and_ the rightful
heir. :) No, I was exaggerating, <g>, but I was thinking that you might
have problems with the Satraps, or with local leaders. Easier to control
the paytroll directly then to allow someone else to get a hold of it --
even if they're not going to be booting the Moonson off the throne, they
might screw around in local politics, which is probably a no-no, or using
Imperial troops to fight local faction wars, which is probably even worse.
Seems like once a ruler surrendered his power of the purse (like the
Imperial Romans, or the Hapsburgs) that was a big factor in the loss of
control over internal politics.
> And most of the Lunar Manoeuvre army is professional. Only the
> provincials are militia.
The _core_ army is professional, but IMO that's only a fraction of the
army. Most of the troops, even the regulars, are only semi-professional,
or mercenary-esque (say, like the Blue Moonies -- they're not _exactly_
professional). And the Lunars had a lot of militia marching with them in
Dragon Pass, if I recall. So you'd maybe get "loaner" officers and head
NCOs from the regular troops?
(Frex, for anyone who hasn't seen it: Joerg did a _really_ good extrapolation of the Lunar Empire's troops outside of Dragon Pass -- the highlight being, as I recall, 50 plus Dragon Pass counters of Char-Un cossacks. Yikes!)
> We disagree a lot so our positions must be really similar. The real
> risk in following RW equivalents is to draw too many equivalencies from the
> same source. Mix and mash!
I agree! But it's very useful, and discussions like this help to seperate
out the chaff. :) I like the idea of Lunars with Roman organization, Greek
hoplite tactics, magic regiments as complicated as 17th century
musketeers, cossack cav and whatever else thrown in to fill up the levy.
Of course, this all started when I innocently gave an example of word
borrowing... :)
Joer Baumgartner writz:
> Why? because city life forced members of different tribes (and clans) to
> live with and interact on a daily basis with each other. So if in Jonstown
> there are Malani, Culbrea and Cinsina, you can expect Malani to aquire
> Cinsina inflections and vice versa. At least I tend to find myself adapting
> linguistically to my environs.
No, no, I understand the procedure of how it works. I just can't see the
cities changing how the rural folk talk, although I do agree moving to the
city changes how you speak (sorry, I probalby wasn't clear on that point)
in the case of Sartar (where the cities are small).
But how often do you see farmers traveling to the city? Just curious -- I'm not a huge Sartar freak, so I figured maybe a couple times a year for a day or two to sell your goods, then leave. Not enough to really change much, IMO. If there's more interaction, though, I'd agree with you. I've just not ever seen it that way. And, frex, the size of the cities must be quite small compared to the number of rural speakers, IMO.
> No. You call it "_the_ Broo's Bottom", and claim it's unique.
<g> Much better idea. Except when the Stormbull vist, natch. "Wha?! Me
kill!" run run run <Splash> "Arrrgh! No Broo here!"
Yeah, it really depends on how much interaction you play with. <Shrug> I never really saw _that_ much going on, but then again I was mostly more interested in bashing the locals over the head and eating them. :) I did think Tarsh had its own dialect, though...?
And like I said -- it's not really my field. I just happened to live in a country where village A and village B _would_ have very different terms for things, and had to use outside terms to establish mutual understanding. Yeah, there were huge differences between the two examples, but perhaps enough in common to draw some useful ideas.
Argrath adopting Lunar terminology for regimental magic:
> I really doubt that Argrath was versed in any way with the Lunar methods of
> regimental magic. What he did was to copy the principle, many mages working
> together rather than one at a time, by imitating things familiar to the
> Sartarites but so far unused in warfare, like the communal magic of a
> worship ceremony to a clan wyter.
That's a fair point, and I certainly don't think he adopted their
techniques en masse. (Argrath: "All right, here's your red cloaks. Put 'em
on.") But I think there has to be something more -- otherwise, why were
the Lunars supposedly the first to do this? Heck, the trolls were using
communal warfare magic long before the red moon raised her cratered face,
but _they_ don't get the credit. (Think I'm loopy, do you? Well, what else
would you call Tree Chopping song?)
I think the Lunars took it a couple steps farther than anyone (besides maybe the God Learners, or Arkat, or Gbaji, or some similar entity) had before. I don't think it's just a matter of just mixing and matching a couple of clan ceremonies. <shrug> But all IMO, of course.
> Well, first of all someone has to know the Lunar terms. Ok, Argrath had
> several years of experience in Lunar-occupied Pavis, but how do you think
> will Lunar magicians talk to a Wind Lord/Storm Voice?
Well, first you get a sharp knife, and you heat it, and while you've
got the Lunar magician tied down, he tells you all you want. :)
Hmm, that is a pretty puzzle, though. Deserters probably wouldn't
include magicians, would they? Oh! Heroquesting. If you can overcome one
of these magicians while he's tooling around on the Hero Plane, you can
wrest it away from him. Make a nice little adventure, actually -- trying
to find out enough about Lunar heroquesting enough so that you can
bushwhack one of their regimental magicians. Serve the loonies right --
they do it to everyone else. And it's probably easier and safer than
experimentation. Since effects seem to change pretty drastically when you
leave spirit and divine magic behind for massed regimental magic (such as
in the Cradle battle), I'd think it risky to gamble that your remaining
Sartarite shamans, priests and what-have-you won't goof up and blow up
their heads, or something. Then again, I'm not Argrath.
> There are. Concepts like a volley of arrows easily translate to a volley of
> spells.
Then (being lazy, and using a RW example) why did the Germans steal words
from other languages for military terms, if these concepts are so easily
translatable? Or the English? Or anyone? Yeah, sometimes a new word is
created, but it's often easier to take the word from the group that brings
you the concept. Why did us American types adopt "mesa," when we already
had a word (table) that meant the same thing? (And why do we name some of
them Table Mesa...?)
And from RoC, that didn't seem to be just volleying spells off -- it
seemed very intricate to me.
> I don't really see how "Sorry, mister Centurio, ma'am" will help you build
> up a magical terminology.
"What! Painting "Lunars go home," are you! You've not conjugated "go home"
correctly, you fool! Do it again!"
I'd think they'd learn more than _that_, though -- certainly some of the
military terms. Open to debate, I suppose. And, IMO, if these guys don't
learn Lunar they're idiots -- know thy enemy. "Gee, we captured the Lunar
garrison's mail but can't read it." Not! Then again, I always try to
learn lots of languages when I play, so I may be biased. (Probably it's
language envy, since I'm terrible with languages. Kudos, IMO, to those
from non-English speaking countries that contribute here like Jose Ramos
and Joerg Baumgartner -- I sure wish I could do the same thing in Spanish
or German.)
> I see it as doing the same thing as in a worship ceremony or a Sacred Time
> quest, only on a battlefield - all chant together, spend magic energy
> together, and the leaders of the ceremony direct the stuff to do whatever it
> is supposed to do.
> But then, I have bored an earlier incarnation of this digest to bits with my
> musings on regimental magic...
I missed that one -- do you know when it was, so to look in the archives?
Would you mind summarizing it? And frex, that stuff isn't boring -- that
stuff you had on the Lunar Army a few years ago was quite good, for
example, and inspired a few GM ideas.
I'd be interested in your thoughts on regimental magic! Or looking at how the different cultures do it -- when I say the Lunars have a highly regimented system and you say the Orlanti have something similar to their heroquests we may both be right -- while the Trolls might not have figured out how to do regimental magic outside of family/clan groups. The Dwarves are another good candidate -- I'd think the Iron Dwarves must have _some_ sort of system for this stuff. The Kralorelans? Others? With the Lunars simply being the ones who made the breakthrough to the next level.
Hmmm. In light of this, you may well be right to say Argrath wouldn't know Lunar words for regimental magic, because he never adopted _their_ methods, he developed ones that fit his cultural background. Interesting idea. Still think Sartarites would be learning new words from the Lunars, though: they must be introducing _something_ valuable.
Yeah! Bring back the Boring Regimental Magic thread, now to be known as the Non-BRM thread!
James Frusetta
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #170
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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