James Frusetta
>But how often do you see farmers traveling to the city? Just curious --
>I'm not a huge Sartar freak, so I figured maybe a couple times a year for
>a day or two to sell your goods, then leave. Not enough to really change
>much, IMO.
Depends on how many kinsfolk you have there, and how long you stay when you go there. If you stick around for a time while bribing and waiting to learn spells in the major temple there, I guess you will get some exposure. If you need special festival clothing made, best stay for the week and have them changed before taking them home. Etc.
>If there's more interaction, though, I'd agree with you.
Farmers living close to the city may well come four times per season to sell their produce.
>I've
>just not ever seen it that way. And, frex, the size of the cities must be
>quite small compared to the number of rural speakers, IMO.
From the numbers in Genertela Book, yes, most cities are small, and still Sartar is almost over-urbanized, i.e. around 10% of the population are urbans. If you count farmer-citizens as urbans, that is.
>I did think Tarsh had its own dialect, though...?
More like its own language, if you accept e.g. southern Norway as bilingual. I imagine the Pelorian Orlanthi speaker in Quivini lands or Maniria to face greater problems than I did when I came to northern Norway speaking only Swedish to understand the native language. Almost like Low German (Plattdeutsch) and Danish, similar, essentially from the same roots, but separated in pronunciation. (All examples from own experience...)
>Argrath adopting Lunar terminology for regimental magic:
>> I really doubt that Argrath was versed in any way with the Lunar methods of
>> regimental magic. What he did was to copy the principle, many mages working
>> together rather than one at a time, by imitating things familiar to the
>> Sartarites but so far unused in warfare, like the communal magic of a
>> worship ceremony to a clan wyter.
>That's a fair point, and I certainly don't think he adopted their
>techniques en masse. (Argrath: "All right, here's your red cloaks. Put 'em
>on.")
According to Reaching Moon Megagorp theories (which I support in this case), this is about to happen when you start using Pelorian Newspeak. You are forced to think Lunar, not just the language. Just as Issarian (Jrusteli, rather?) Tradetalk will make you think of trading rather than philosophy.
>But I think there has to be something more -- otherwise, why were
>the Lunars supposedly the first to do this?
The Lunars still are the only ones to have regiments of magicians only. The Sartarites and other Regimental Magic users combine (admittedly warlike) priests and other magicians with lots of crack guards, providing fair cavalry and ordinary infantry even if the magicians are taken out magically.
>I think the Lunars took it a couple steps farther than anyone (besides
>maybe the God Learners, or Arkat, or Gbaji, or some similar entity) had
>before. I don't think it's just a matter of just mixing and matching a
>couple of clan ceremonies. <shrug> But all IMO, of course.
There's more to it. In my mind there is a draconic whisper of EWF-sorcery when it comes regimental magic.
>Then (being lazy, and using a RW example) why did the Germans steal words
>from other languages for military terms, if these concepts are so easily
>translatable?
Because their officers didn't speak German at that time. 17th and 18th century Germany faced the same linguistic situation as post 1066 England: The natives had their old language, and the rulers spoke French. Friedrich II of Preussen spoke mostly French, even though he (at least) could speak German.
>Or the English? Or anyone? Yeah, sometimes a new word is
>created, but it's often easier to take the word from the group that brings
>you the concept. Why did us American types adopt "mesa," when we already
>had a word (table) that meant the same thing? (And why do we name some of
>them Table Mesa...?)
This happens mostly when the people who adopt the foreign word aren't aware of its meaning. One way to say "Cheers!" in Finnish still is "Kippis!", from the hanseatic merchantman custom of offering a high-percentage drink before haggling and encouraging their trade partners to drown it ("kipp es!").
>And from RoC, that didn't seem to be just volleying spells off -- it
>seemed very intricate to me.
And very Lunar. Definitely not Argrath's style.
>I'd think they'd learn more than _that_, though -- certainly some of the
>military terms. Open to debate, I suppose. And, IMO, if these guys don't
>learn Lunar they're idiots -- know thy enemy.
If they learn too much Lunar they are converts, and know their enemies...
>"Gee, we captured the Lunar garrison's mail but can't read it." Not!
Read it? Who says that to become a Storm Voice one has to be able to read? (Other than generic RQ3 priest rules, that is...)
>> But then, I have bored an earlier incarnation of this digest to bits with my
>> musings on regimental magic...
>I missed that one -- do you know when it was, so to look in the archives?
>Would you mind summarizing it? And frex, that stuff isn't boring -- that
>stuff you had on the Lunar Army a few years ago was quite good, for
>example, and inspired a few GM ideas.
It ended in a slug match of 'tis - 'tisn't about single huge spirits or just somehow coordinated standard RQ spells (frex) while on the digest, but was continued off-line. My position was that the (Sartarite) unit's wyter spirit would be used to coordinate the magic over the vast distance shown in Dragon Pass.
Things like the siege magic used at Whitewall (the ramp of the Seven of Vistur) or the Solar exotic magic of "extra Sunspear" which backfired when used on Harrek at Pennel Ford, or even Skyburn or Moonburn weren't covered.
>I'd be interested in your thoughts on regimental magic! Or looking at how
>the different cultures do it -- when I say the Lunars have a highly
>regimented system and you say the Orlanti have something similar to their
>heroquests we may both be right
Of course. ;-)
>while the Trolls might not have figured
>out how to do regimental magic outside of family/clan groups.
IMO this was the problem of the Orlanthi as well, before Argrath (and after Alakoring; before Alakoring, larger scale cooperation - especially of priests - was better known).
>The Dwarves
>are another good candidate -- I'd think the Iron Dwarves must have _some_
>sort of system for this stuff. The Kralorelans? Others? With the Lunars
>simply being the ones who made the breakthrough to the next level.
Dwarves don't need it, really - they suck above-ground, and have all the magic and devices they need below.
Kralori use dream dragons created by their most potent magicians, and similar stuff.
>Still think Sartarites would be learning new words from the Lunars,
>though: they must be introducing _something_ valuable.
Yeah. Taxes, quartering of imperial troops, curfew all would be Lunar-derived words. As might aquaeducts (to get the excess rain away - though IMO some generous and good-willing Lunar from the notoriously summer-dry Heartlands will have financed an aquaeduct into one of the cities of occupied Sartar, and wonder about their lack of enthusiasm...), poor houses, or theatres, to name some more pleasant words. But remember that if the Quivini Sartarites wanted culture, a) they wouldn't have immigrated in the first place, and b) they'd look back to Kethaela.
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #178
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