This post is in rebuttal to quite a few things that Martin Laurie said in Digest #222. It has to do with Objective History, the Monomyth, and other misc. stuff. Fair Warning: if you are not interested, scroll forward.....
ML:
> In Glorantha, Myths _are_ History and history _isn't_ objective - its mythic.
> The problem with this whole debate is that some folk say - "We want an
> objective and accurate history that GMs can use." while others say; "All
> myth and therefore history is subjective to the cultural view of the
> beholder".
>While I agree with the latter view, <snip>
I am afraid I hold with the Monomyth. I do not want to re-kindle a flame war about whether it makes sense, or whether the GL version is accurate. This is one of those cases where I fear we will just have to agree to disagree. This does have some interesting affects on a lot of Martin's later comments, so bear with me...
> I think what it is is that you _don't_ want to see a game world where the
> Gods are no longer striding bohemoths that hack other giant gods to bits
> and do great deeds. Plainly the thought that Orlanth might have actually
> been the name of some great chief in the past or simply made up is a bit
> off-putting to you, even though it is the way human beings make myths in
> reality and Glorantha has such a continuity too.
I like my fantasy gods to be world striding behemoths, and I doubt I'm the only one. I have no problem with great heros apothisizing (spelling?), but anyone who can do that is a world striding behemoth sort of guy. Saying that this is what happened frequently in the RW is meaningless; Glorantha doesn't necessarily work that way. Maybe in _your_ Glorantha, but not mine, and I refuse to speak for the rest of the list members in such a sweeping fashion. Perhaps you should refrain as well? (just a suggestion)
> What Simon wants is a book called "Deities of Glorantha" with chapters
> headed like this: "Storm Age, God kill list #3"
Sigh, this is becoming a little offensive to Simon, I think. At any rate, I have something similar at home; it's called "Cults of Prax". A little bit out-of-date I understand, but usefull & interesting to read.
> (1). If there was an objective history of the God time then deities _would_
> be world striding beings - so where are they now? And what happens when
> one goes for a walk? Lets not bring up the compromise as thats irrelevant
> in most of Glorantha.
But dieties _are_ world striding beings. The Block is where Storm Bull gave the Devil the Big Zot. Waha walked amongst men in the Dark Time and taught them how to survive. Oakfed swallowed up all the forests of Prax. (Insert your own example here.)
The gods are now in the GodPlane. The gods go for a walk regularly. Anyone that wants to, can go see Yelmalio get creamed at the Hill of Gold. All it takes is the proper ritual (which might, of course, be dangerous). People have been participating in the Godtime events via rituals for a looong time.
Why aren't the Gods walking around now? The Orlanthi answer (85% accurate) is that the world changed and the GodPlane is no longer as closely connected to the mundane world as it used to be. Some people talk about the Compromise, some people talk about the Dawn. Whatever suits your myths (or your Glorantha); nonetheless, the world changed. Just as it did at the end of the 2nd age, when the GL's magic suddenly stopped working.
The remaining 15% is that
a) the gods are walking around every time a ritual is performed & a priest
or lord fulfills his patron's role. These people are temporarily avatars
of the gods (in a limited way).
b) Both Hon-eel & Jar-Eel are avatars of the Red Moon Goddess.
c) The Polar Bear God (or what's left of him) is being dragged all over
Glorantha by Harreck.
d) I understand that some of the East Islanders don't think the the mundane
and spirit realms are all that separate, and go sleeping walking on the
Godplane on a regular basis (other folks call Dreaming). If I have misstated
this, someone please correct me.
> (2). If the gods are entities with wills and thoughs, then there would be
> more active participation in the world
The gods work on the mundane wordl through their tools; which is to say, their cults & followers. Direct intervention (of a limited sort) is to be seen anytime someone DI's. Why not more active intervention? See the part about 'the world changed' above. Now it's not so easy.
> (3). Heroquesting wouldn't work because with an obejctive truth, all you
> would have to do was find it and you would never, ever be beaten on it.
> This has all sorts of knock on effects - frex if Humakt IS death then
> Yanafal Tarnils could never have won his freedom in the first place -
> mythically and historically it wouldn't be "true".
I have a couple of problems with this. First, what's wrong with finding the objective truth? And who says you can't be beaten on it? Zorak Zoran beat up Yelmalio at the Hill of Gold and gained Fire powers. I consider this to be an Objective Truth, as both Trolls & SunDomers (ancient enemies) agree on it. Who says you can't be beaten on it? Beat up the troll when you do the HoG heroquest & you get Fire powers (admitedly, that is not the end results most HoG'ers want, but it can happen). Somewhere out there is a Zorak Zorani cultist who doesn't have Fire powers, is is looking for you....
I won't speak to the Yanafal tarnils example, as my ideas in this direction seem to be heretical to most others...
> (4). It would mean that Glorantha is a monoculture and because Orlanth
> actually existed, you could prove his existence to a Brithini and his head
> would explode like computers used to in Star Trek when Kirk hit them with
> the logical loop tactic. As Majikthise said "its a bit bloody pointless
> us debating the existence of God if you only go and give us his bleedin'
> phone number!"
You can prove to a Brithini that Orlanth exists. He will look at your proof and say, "That's very interesting, I guess there really is a whopping big spirit on the spirit plane that responds to the name of Orlanth. Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand the difference between a big spirit and the Invisible God. Let me explain it to you...."
The Brithini never denied the existance of the Invisble God, they just don't se why such a tremendous being would be interested in us little may flies....
> Basically Glorantha is NOT Forgotten Realms....
Agreed
> ...IS mythically realistic and sensible as well as incredibly rich...
Agreed
> ...monomything it would destory it....
Disagreed
> Belief in Glorantha makes reality - get used to it.
If you want to alter this to 'belief in Glorantha can affect reality' I agree with you. I can swallow Sir Ethilrist develping a hero cult and becoming immortal. I am trying to swallow Monrough combining a lot of cults into a synthesis, sort of like grafting two plants together (though I am having trouble digesting this). I won't swallow the Kraloreans believing the Sun is green and it suddenly changes color. If Greg Stafford spouted your statement above, I would swallow it. But he's too broadminded to do so. He is the first one to encourage variance for MGF, or to make things easier for your campaign style. I'm afraid you've made another one of those sweeping statements again; one that has been extensively debated without resolution.
Andrew
Drink Orlanth-Cola
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