David Dunham writes:
> ...it's another hard day on the battlefield, and me and the boyz are
> giving those Lunar scum another poundin'. Just as I'm givin' the boot to
While this starts well, I'm not sure I like the ending. Damn Lunars. :(
> The real problem is that many of us don't really handle tactics well,
Mmmm, the point I was trying to make is that while fencing melee, or
SCA-style re-enactments, or martial arts gives an "in" to seeing how
Gloranthan combat works, those pesky missile weapons and magic spells are
a variable that should be taken into account. While (and I acknowleded
that, even as I posted it) it's not _that_ easy to kill one, neither do
they single-handedly slaughter all they encounter. Moonwulf's life
ain't _that_ easy on the lozenge. The, um, massively pro-troll bias was
just a bonus.
> And don't forget, rune levels often have allied spirits, and usually can
> call on divine intervention. They're far tougher than just a tough
> individual.
Sure -- and first call on the priests for magic (like that there
Reflection), for healing, etc. I've never been able to adequately
determine, though, if it's better to have 10 points of runemagic on one
guy or, say, 2 points on 5 guys, probably because I've run few combats
with that much magic floating around. Any thoughts?
Martin Laurie sez:
> melee, not battle field tactics
Actually, I think that 10 guys fighting a runelevel will do something
similar -- shower the guy with missile and magical attacks (stopping
both/either when they figure out what magic the RL has up), trying to tire
him out, etc., _then_ close in for the kill. IF they've got the nerve,
natch. But I think it takes less morale to hurk a rock at a Storm Kahn
than it does to walk up and hit him with your sword (because you're right,
few would _want_ to go HtH with a runelevel).
> his headlong attack. Trolls may be good guerilla fighters but on the
> battlefield they are headlong warriors and the Orlanthi know this which is why
> they aren't all dead and trolls don't rule the universe.
Now this is a problem I've always had with the way the trolls are
described -- long detail about how the trolls are the ultimate ambush
fighters, then ZZ is described as the "Hrrrah- over the top and charge
the trenches!" cult. How many perfectly good ambushes are ruined when the
stupid ZZers charge on out? And why are _Orlanthi_ smart enough to adapt,
but not trolls, mmm?
Me thinks the trolls -- even the ZZers -- are capable of a wee bit more subtlety, and that the "headlong warriors" business is a human bias -- from the Lhankor Mhy goons who wrote up Trollpak, no doubt. Considering that they've some of the finest cavalry on the planet and probably the best strategic mobility, I _do_ think trolls are primarily raiders.
But I think the trolls are perfectly capable on the battlefield -- taking ZZ to determine how troll combat works would be like taking a Storm Bull to figure out how Orlanthi combat works (or Shargashi for Lunars/Dara Happans). And, note, this is why Karrg -- a rather under-acknowledged god, IMO -- is one of the Trollish war gods. Karrg's the one who provides the organization -- the ZZers are basically specialty units (with some exceptions).
> As for the lunars blowing a fellow away with a ballistae - hmmm, I don't think
> an Orlanthi warrior is going to issue ritual challenges to a foreigner.
I could well be wrong, but weren't there a fair number of examples of
challenging the foreigner in RW history? Hell, Charles V offered a
personal challenge (quickly revoked -- I think he might have been drunk)
to the nasty, infidel Ottoman Sultan, who presumably had no concept of
Christian honor. RW examples aren't always applicable, noted, but they are
there. 'Sides, when you _beat_ the evil, nasty, honorless foreigner, your
victory is that much greater.
The first time the Lunars show up, the Orlanthi may well offer personal challenges -- until the Lunars show their true colors. In 1620, the situation may well be different, because: A) All the stupid Orlanthi got killed, and B) The rest learned better.
> clearly - these are not stupid people and they are weaned on war and raid.
> should never be forgotten when comparing military capabilities.
Generalizing, there are a lot of different approaches to war in Glorantha. The Lunars have the "civilized" view; the Sun Domers have a fairly ritualized view ("maneuver and strategem are distained by generals and troopers alike"), the Elves are forest rangers (put out the fire & kill the pests), the Trolls are raiders (or, IMO, grocery shoppers), etc. etc.
I think there's going to be cultural baggage that's difficult to get rid of -- just because the Bison Riders thumped the Sun Domers last week doesn't mean the Domers say, "Hell with this ritual stuff," start using massed archers, train up some cavalry and learn maneuvers. Sometimes, you take your lumps and don't learn anything. Sometimes you do.
Doesn't mean that they're _stupid_, just that how you fight can have cmeanings that are hard to shed, or values that aren't reflected on the battlefield. For the Orlanthi, a people who pride themselves on their independence and heroism, personal challenges may take a long, long time to die out, because it means something _other_ than just "Hey, I can take out that Death Lord." For the disorderly ZZers, I think one of the sources of conflict between Kwaratch Kang and Arkat (despite the fact they were supposed to be friends) was that Arkat was creating organized troll armies and casting aside traditional raiding tactics. For Farnath Battleblade, it's difficult to cast aside the tradition of accepting challenges _even_ though he knows the trolls may not honor it. (And, of course, he might have that pesky "accept all challenges" geas. :) Not necessarily stupidity -- Farnath values his sense of honor and may rather die than refuse challenge (yeah, _I_ think it's stupid, but he may not), Kang saw ZZ's ways as being challenged by Arkat and resisted it (though not to the end), the Orlanthi might wish to emulate Orlanth himself through personal battlefield bravery.
James Frusetta
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