>Joerg Baumgartner:
>>Not me consensing, not by a long shot.
>First, we are only talking about Sartarite and Heortling Humakti here. Holy
>Country Humakti,
Please explain what you mean by Heortling, as opposed to Holy Country?
>(NB. I see Shargash as an
>exception to this - he's a primal and primitive throwback to Death in its
>purest form. I reckon his worshipers are infertile.)
I think that this applies to some, not all of his worshippers. I hate absolutism in any form...
Next you tell me Zorak Zorani are infertile, or give birth to zombies? ;-)
>IMO Sartar is a fairly primitive and barbarian society, with a pantheistic
>religion, and here Humakt's aspect as God of War is overshadowed by his
>aspect as God of Death.
Rural Sartar: yes, no doubt, except where more recent immigrants have set up their manors (not steads, manors). While KoS doesn't mention it expressis verbis, I am firmly convinced that the founding of the Principality of Sartar in 1492 attracted many civilized immigrants from the Holy Country looking for opportunities. While most of these would have flocked to the new cities of Sartar, sooner or later they would push into the countryside as well. I doubt Jomes Wulf's entry into Maboder lands was the first incident of civilized landholders in Sartar. It may very well have happened already prior to the Lunar occupation. Think of Baron Sanuel (though outside Sartar, and about as oversized as Jomes Wulf). BTW, what do people think happened to Jomes Wulf's colony of retired Red Armists during the liberation of Sartar? Did he become a Sartarite noble in the array of semi-dependable followers?
>Arkat did not bring Humakt/Death to Dragon Pass - Death was already there.
Yes. Likely in the form of Zolan Zubar or similar grim manifestations.
>Arkat (and others) only brought new ideas which modified his grim local
>worship to some degree. Such as the idea of the honourable and truthful
>warrior (a concept no doubt inspired by the knights of the west). This is
>why some suggest that Arkat is Humakt's son - an erroneous simplification
>of his role.
True. But I am pretty sure "people can prove this fact on a heroquest".
>Even so, the core of Sartar and Heortling Humakti belief is built around a
>grim god of Death, War and all Endings.
Hmm. As far as I'm concerned, I _know_ that the immigrants to Quivini lands, and later Sartar, were about as culturally homogeneous as the settlers who conquered what became the United States of America from Europe. They included political and religious dissidents from all over Heortland and northern Esrolia as well as economical refugees and simple adventurers. And many, but far from all of these were descended from people had fled to Maniria less than 250 years ago. All kinds of splinter cultures will have formed, and survived somehow.
This said, I find it somewhat hard to find a core belief in tribes as variant as the Torkani, the Runegate Triaty and the Malani. For the following discussion, I'll refer to the Malani as a standard...
>A god that is not fertile
I'm not sure about that, really. There is too much influence from the bloody earth rituals in Kerofinela, and has been there since the Dawn. Do you think that the cult of the Bloody Tusk was much less blood-thirsty when Aram-ya-Udram founded it? I don't. It was an acceptable, though bloody expression of death, yet death within the cycles of life.
>and who
>severed his ties to the Storm tribe by his own choice and actions (though
>he is still an honoured guest and a part of the pantheon).
Now this is not at all the primal death I envision in Kerofinela.
First Death was released from Darkness, and came with other demons of hell. There is a myth how Lodril was released from his spear; should there be one how Zorak Zoran (by whatever name) is released from the sword?
Death wreaked havoc, in Kerofinela as well as in Kethaela and Prax. But in the Greater Darkness, the heroes learned to master it, and wield it as a tool of defence against Chaos and other bad things.
>Also, in Orlanth's pantheon Humakt fills a unique niche. As do all of the
>gods and goddesses of the pantheon (and in the case of some a niche that is
>no longer relevant). Each provides a specialisation based on that niche. If
>you start homogenising the gods in the pantheon then there is no point in
>having that pantheon.
This goes back to the discussion between disparate monotheism within a polytheistic culture (i.e. initiation to one god, and one god only) vs. worship of all the gods in the pantheon, and performing functions of all the gods in the pantheon.
Look, I demand in no way that you go to the heroplane and find Humakt trotting behind the plow. _That_ would be as wrong as you say.
But what is wrong with the real life Humakti warrior and master over farmers?
What is wrong with his swearing to protect a wife and their kids?
However, the wife of a Humakti (and I do think that a Humakti may swear this vow of protection and care, after his initiation) will live in the knowledge that her husband has stronger obligations than the care for his family. Like with Samurai, a Humakti may well be forced to cause the death of his family, or be prevented from protecting them. Vow vs. vow, internal conflicts, MGF.
>Joerg & Jim Chapin mention a 17-year ago campaign run by Greg Stafford (who
>*never* contradicts his oldest writings, oh no...) to attempt to back up
>the fertile Death argument:
>>Erril Silksword, Sword-priestess of the Temple of the Wooden Sword,
>>gave birth to her (invisible) daughter by Alebard
>Well, even ignoring the age of this source, they would do that wouldn't
>they? They're player characters. Never take the actions of PC's as being
>the cultural norm. That sort of thing doesn't happen every day, or would
>you dispute that?!!
No. But it was this band of unusual-for-Sartar avatars of death who did this. The story remains part of Dragon Pass history, some details altered. I'll be the first to admit that this _birth_ was magical. But as for the pregnancy, I am less sure.
>Joerg:
>>IMG most Humakti around Dragon Pass follow the god of war,
>>not the god of death. They are part of the mercenary regiments which
>>live on the tensions in Dragon Pass
>I would dispute that, before the coming of Argrath, Dragon Pass was
>crawling with a myriad of independant mercenary regiments, not tied closely
>to their home culture. The population is too small and the cultures are too
>primitive to support such a situation.
The situation of continuous war between Sartar and Lunar Tarsh would have invited the mercenary regiments based in the civilized neighbouring lands into the pass region. Note that I said "around", not "in" Dragon Pass. Frex most of Terasarin's reign saw border fights against the Lunar Tarshites, and what wise ruler would decline service offered by mercenaries which would allow his farmers and crafters to remain productive?
It is described as a quite common course for Sartarite exiles to become a mercenary somewhere nearby (say in Knight Fort in southern Heortland, during 1613-1615), and to return when the events which led to the exile are forgiven (mostly when gouvernment changes). If these have become Humakti, they will return with lots of ready cash (loot), and be able to establish themselves as landholders who have a couple of cottars to do the actual work, if not thralls.
>Sure, I can see a couple small Humakti warbands (say, 100 or 200 warriors
>tops) existing in service to the kingdom of Sartar,
You mean permanent service? In that case I agree. In wartimes, multiply by a number between 10 and 20. Most of the mercenaries I used in my number-crushing are based on other countries and come to Dragon Pass only when times are good for hired swords, i.e. in war-time. Nonetheless they may include a whole lot of Sartarites, not all expatriate, some of whom will want to return to their home country after completing their service.
>and maybe they might
>just eke out a living as hired help on the regular cattle raids or border
>raids that the Sartarite clans involve themselves in. I can see a few Uroxi
>warbands too. But these would hardly be enough to generate the vast numbers
>of pensioners Joerg is looking for (most of 'em die young in battle
>anyway).
Those who don't survive to see pension. Take your average mercenary, and play out the "military experience" from Different Worlds 28 (OOP-info: twenty years of warfare in the Dragon Pass area, in tables, covering 1602-1621, with remarks about the letality of the campaigns, or lack thereof). Since most battles survived increase the chance not to be killed in the next one, about one half of the mercenaries will see their pensions. Those killed early often are the lay members trying to become a full Humakti, IMO.
>The Grazers may provide a few mercenary bands to others, but they'd be
>small due to their minute population and only serve a limited time before
>they'd feel the urge to head back to the range. I really doubt they'd ever
>wish to employ some themselves in the normal course of events.
>The Sun Domers and Black Horse County would provide the main mercenary
>forces indigenous to the Pass. Which present no pensioner problems since
>they retire back to their homes to sire more mercs.
Black Horse Country would indeed be a hotbed for Humakti mercs. Hiia Swordsman is among the Vendref.
>A few Mercenary units from outside of Dragon Pass have been employed in the
>Holy country, and may even in Sartar before the Lunars. The Lunars
>themselves would have brought mercenary units in from *outside*. But
>outsiders don't fit the profile.
They fill the temples, though.
>Joerg's argument for Dragon Pass being flooded with lusty Humakti
>pensioners with a need-to-breed just doesn't hold water IMO.
Old bachelor landholders don't seem fit for the culture, but nurseries for retired warriors in the cities seem even less so. Who cares for warriors too old to serve? Are there Humakti euthanasia units to dispose of those too old to fight properly? Doesn't sound right.
>Furthermore Joerg sez:
>>I suppose that the Lismelder living on the marsh edge (and the
>>ducks as well) have quite a lot of Humakti "farmers"
>Oh dear...
Come on, I said what I meant with farmers.
>RANT MODE ON:
>Divad Llah sez:
>Oh, yes I can see it now. It's an idyllic setting, outside in the fields
>there's Bob the fun-loving Humakti carefully ploughing and sowing his
>crops.
I said explicitely that this wouldn't be the case, but Divad Llah is a known Loonie, so why do I try to argue?
>Please think on this. In the clan-based culture of Orlanth and Ernalda what
>is the point if Humakt can farm and breed like Orlanth/Barntar,
I didn't say they fight and breed as well. Of course they don't - a 40-year old Humakti new father will be less fertile, and a worse father, than the 18-year old Orlanthi or Barntar father.
And in the senario I presented (which David managed to ignore totally) the Humakti doesn't even touch the seed grain. His servants do.
Besides: What is wrong with Humakti breeding war horses, or war hounds?
>and
>Orlanth/Barntar can fight and die as well as Humakt? What really *is* the
>point?
Then who are all the guys who are so nicely drawn to Yanafal of the Seven Moms in the Lunar Provincial kingdoms? Former Barntar followers?
>All Hail the Exasperated Moon!
What has she to do with this?
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