David Cake <davidc_at_cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
this n'that
>
>> I think that most elves use a form of
>>magic different from Divine Magic or Spirit Magic.
>
> I bloody well hate it when people say this. Either go to the
>trouble of explaining WHY they don't use divine and spirit magic when it
is
>accessible to them, and then go to the trouble of writing up their magic
>system in at least sketchy terms, or don't say it.
Since I think this was my statement, let me reply to it, as it was incomplete, I admit. Though I don't have time or enough info to develop an elf magic system to any degree.
I believe that elves do have some Divine cults, such as High King Elf, Babeester Gor, Arroin, Yelmalio, some others. And, I believe that some elven shamans can provide access to Spirit Magics of appropriate type. But, most elves would primarily be involved in Aldrya only, and so would not use these to any great extent. I do not think that Food Song is _really_ a Spirit Magic spell -- it is an innate ability of elves, and they certainly don't have to _learn_ how to do it by learning a spell! The spell does exist, I think, but is one which is taught to _humans_ to use on plant life, if they are friendly to elves. The Yelorna cult is a good example of this.
I deny the existence of a Cult of Aldrya among elves. I deny that elven Divine spells exist for Tanglethicket, Plant Eye/Spy, Accelerate Growth, Create/Animate War Tree, or (for that matter) Grow Bloodvine or Grow Poisonthorn Arrow (both of which I printed in The Book of Drastic Resolutions, Volume Chaos). There is no need for a cult of Aldrya among elves, since they are each a part of Aldrya. Now, cults which have "Aldrya" as an associate deity might have a Divine Spell called Accelerate Growth which works as in Gods of Glorantha and elsewhere, and they claim that they get it from Aldrya. True for them, but not true for the elves.
Given various clues, I do believe that the "Song" of the elves and their connection to Aldrya gives them access to a special type of magic dealing with nurturing and growing plants. Coupled with the proper seeds, this allows them to grow the types of things which are just as amazing as the things Mostali can build. Trees which grow Copper Spearheads, plants which can walk, etc. Now, these abilities can be represented as Divine spells, but this seems clumsy to me. Few if any would have a set duration, and few would have much of a range -- as far as you can throw the seed, that would be about it. The POW sacrifice seems OK to me, I guess, though I'd be happier with a different mechanic, though one which still costs the elf something. Shoot, if the elf had to root for 1 week per POW equivalent I'd be happy!
> (That said, I agree that elves have special magics that only
elves
>are capable of using, that involves using elf sense to encourage the
growth
>of magical plants. It takes months at a minimum,
I'm not sure I agree with you, unless you mean more than you say. Some of the plants might take months to grow, but the elf need only spend a few minutes. Some of the plants will be common in some elf areas, and all the elf has to do is get the proper seed. For example, once you have a Tanglethicket seed (however long that took -- a Tanglethicket bush might take years to begin producing seeds), it probably only takes the plant a few minutes to grow. Not the 1 strike rank from RQ, certainly, but not months or even hours. It is a special plant which has been developed over centuries or millenia of "forced evolution" to be quick growing.
>and game rules are
>probably simply knowledge of plant + seed + elf-sense roll + plant lore
>roll + months of time or Accelerate Growth(s) = special plant.
It could even be pretty much automatic, as Divine Magic is. If the elf has properly prepared the plant (taking occasional visits over months or years), and properly harvested the seed (this might take a few seconds, or a couple of hours, depending on the seed), it might take only a few seconds of concentration to get the plant going.
But I think
>they use spirit magic, taught from shamans just like human spirit magic,
>and divine magic, just the same as humans as well. Substitute elf-sense
for
>magic skills in their divine magic if you really want to get picky).
>
I think that the true elven cults work almost exactly like human cults.
Thus, those elves who worship Vronkal, the High King Elf, can learn a
number of standard and special Divine spells, which work exactly as
stated in the rules. This would include Arrow Trance, Chameleon, Silence
Sphere, Reflection, Shield, and Heal Body (going from the list in Elder
Secrets). Plus some of the associate spells, they work the same (though I
find it difficult to believe that a true elf cult is going to get Speak
With Herd Beasts from Eiritha, or any equivalent herd deity, no matter
where they are).
> There are the Uncolings, reindeer folk of Northern Fronela (I've
>think they've got as far East as the Lunar Empire, and they are the main
>inhabitants just above and east of the Winterwood, across to Rathorela
>lands, at least).
I thought they were farther south, at the bottom of Ralios -- am I misremembering?
I always, for some reason, figured that they were a) not
>hsunchen b) lived off the reindeer, but didn't ride them. I had them
pegged
>as sort of reindeer hunting inuit. But I'd like to know more about them,
>they cut rather romantic figures, the last humans before the glaciers
>begin, I think. Perhaps some of those Gateway tundra cults, like Enuk
>Manamee, could be salvaged for nice stuff for these guys.
>
I always liked Enuk Manamee and Taigaluk, and would love any means to
salvage them. Though I pictured them as being worshiped by whatever
humans live to the north of the White Sea, on the "peninsula" not covered
by the Glacier. Northern Fronela works for me too, however. Since their
name doesn't follow the standard hsunchen format of Animal-i, I can buy
them as Lapp-style reindeer -- terrain there is quite similar, isn't it?
> I fairly much agree with Mike Cules description of the
heroplane.
>'Maps' of the heroplane have only rough correspondence to geography. Its
>more like paths of actions to take. There are some rough geographical
>elements (sky is up, deep water powers are at the bottom of the ocean,
>etc), but its certainly not everything.
>
On Hero Plane Maps -- Greg does have a set of Godtime maps of Glorantha,
which could be used as templates for some parts of the Hero Plane/God
Plane. They start at number 6 (since #s 1-5 are basically pretty
featureless), and go to number 12 or so, Late Storm Age. As I understood
it, Mike Dawson was going to print them in Codex, don't know if that is
Codex 4 or a later one, or even if it is still going to happen. Greg
wrote a couple of pages to try to explain them, so I hope Mike gets them
out.
The maps are _VERY_ God Learnerized, and were probably drawn by a GL in fact. Lots of interesting places marked on them, though Pamaltela is pretty featureless throughout. It appears that the Trollpak maps were drawn based on these, though I suppose it could be the other way around. For me, they are best used as a map of the extent of the Oceans at various times in Gloranthan God Learner history.
Alex Ferguson <abf_at_interzone.ucc.ie>
Merged Cults.
>
OK, I'm gonna start ranting now. Those of you who don't want to hear it,
should just skip this posting. Don't say I didn't warn you!
>Stephen P Martin defends his "Many Rune Levels => Merged Cult" theory
>against allegations of Silliness.
>
>Exluding the "Ruling Gods" (though I'm not sure on what basis, nor am I
>convinced Bagog is such in the sense that the others are), we're left
with:
>Seven Mothers, Thanatar, Yelmalio, Issaries and Yelm.
>
That's why "Ruling" was in parentheses -- Bagog is a ruling god in the
sense that she is the prime determining factor of an entire race, albeit
a minor one. Kyger Litor is the same in this respect. And, I also believe
that some of these "ruling gods" (such as Orlanth, and certainly Yelm)
are the result of mergers as well -- the current Orlanth cult was, I
believe, two + separate Storm God cults in the Grey Age, and
possibly/probably even in the First Age.
>> As for the ruling gods, I note that all but one (Orlanth) have
shamans,
>> and that none of the other cults have shamans.
>
And what about the Seven Mothers -- you don't mention that at all? It is
clearly a cult comprised of a number of "gods", and the write-up in fact
states that each of these other gods has their own separate cult. The
Rune Lords are very clearly transplanted from Yanafal Ta'arnils, while
the priests seem to sort of mush the other gods together.
>You mean, none of the other "multi-RL" cults? Several other cults
>have shamans as their single "priest" rank, so I don't see the real
>significance of this.
Actually, I seriously disagree with this. The concept of a "shamanic cult", such as the hsunchen deities, is a misnomer, IMO. Telmor is no more a Divine Cult than is Aldrya, though it differs in a different way, of course. Even as I think elves don't use Divine spells for their main magical effects, neither do I think hsunchen use Divine spells to transform into their totem animal. They have a type of magic which differs. A long time ago there was an article in Dragon magazine about Beast Cults, giving progressive abilities at higher levels of initiation - -- animal empathy, appearance of the animal, speak with animals, call animals, transform into animals, etc. I think it would make more sense for the hsunchen to gain this type of ability.
Thus, a Telmori initiate would at first only be able to move as swiftly and quietly as a wolf. Later, he would begin to be able to communicate on a basic, emotional level with wolves. Then, he could take on some of their other characteristics, then Speak with them, then turn himself into one. The shamans could do even niftier things, like make his spirit appear to be a wolf's, and embody/incarnate the wolf spirit.
I think this is true of other shamanic cults -- because they have _only_ shamans, they are not Divine cults, and should have something other than Divine magic. Now, since RQ is going for game simplicity, it is easiest to represent these abilities by giving Telmor the Divine spells of Wolfrunning, Wolf's Head, Wolfhide, and Speak With Wolves. But that don't necessarily mean it is the _best_ way to do it.
>> Personally, I believe that
>> the Orlanth cult should include a shaman level as well.
>
>I can see absolutely no Gloranthan reason for this, myself. Various
>sources have mentioned Theyalan shaman, but none (that I'm aware of)
>have suggested they have anything to do with the Orlanth cult. If
>anything, quite the reverse.
>
We have exactly one reference in print that I remember, from KoS -- where
does it necessarily suggest they are separate from the Orlanth cult? But
even admitting that point, I still stick to my suggestion.
In the case of the cults which include shamans in addition to priests, the shamans seem to represent an older version of the cult, as it were -- both Waha shamans and Pamalt shamans seem, to me, to be a holdover from the Grey Age, when the gods were just getting started. I don't know enough about the Doraddi to comment on this belief (i.e., it is an instinctive, non-rational opinion), but I can look at Waha and see that his anti-chaos roles are pretty much passe now that Storm Bull is around, yet they are still important to his mythos and his nature. Thus, the shamans of Waha, his original religious officials, have become relegated to keeping that aspect. As his cult has become entrenched within time, the martial leaders, the Khans, have gained control of the religious hierarchy, to where they now count as priests.
Now maybe Orlanth has become too civilized to have shamans any more. But, I could see Orlanth shamans in some of the less-civilized areas, such as Brolia, still having an important role in the Orlanth cult. At least as important as Bagog shamans are in the cult of Bagog, where we have both Acolytes _and_ the Scorpion Queens to interpret the hungers of the goddess.
>> Orlanth in RQ3
>> seems clearly a merger of two cults I feel are better left separate,
>> Thunderous and Adventurous, plus the Rex "subcult".
>
>The two Orlanthi "priesthoods" are effectively separate, but I think
>the acid test is whether they have common Initiation or not, and I
>think they do. I see no reason to suppose they were ever any _more_
>separate than this; probably rather less so, becoming more
>"specialised" over time. The Rex aspect is clearly an example of such
>an "added feature", not a historically independant cult.
>
And I could easily disagree with this as well -- there is a lot of
confusion over what is the nature of Orlanth initiation. KoS makes it
clear that _all_ Orlanthi men undergo the same initiation into Orlanth,
yet you can't deny that the priests of Orlanth are separate from the
priests of Elmal, and Chalana Arroy, and etc. Until we get clarification
on what initiations Orlanthi go through, and whether initiation into
Orlanth means the culture, the cult, or both, we can claim whichever view
we like. And the nature of the Orlanth cult will follow right along with
it, originally separate or separate development.
>Mild soapbox: theorising about such things is all very well, but I
become
>uncomfortable when they're taken beyond mere speculation, and become
>agitation for Glorantha to be "improved" to suit them better.
My soapbox: RuneQuest is a _very_ imperfect representation of Glorantha, and I have no qualms about abandoning anything which seems to have been dictated by game rules or mechanics. If "improving" Glorantha means making it more accurate, than I am all for it. RuneQuest is not the only game in which Glorantha can be set, nor are games the only medium in which Glorantha can be expressed. The "1 Cult = 1 Rune Lord" rule was abandoned in RQ3 because it was inaccurate. Now, maybe the Orlanth cults were merged because they were inaccurate as separate cults, maybe because RQ was a God Learner invention in the late 80s. Take your pick, as I have taken mine.
I don't mean to harangue Alex (those of you who know me, know that that is just how I am), but what's the point of "theorizing" if we can't propose theories? I offered some possible evidence for it -- do you have any evidence _against_ it? Some cult with two levels which can be proved to _not_ be a merged cult?
Truly, Mergedly, unDeniably,
Stephen Martin
ilium_at_juno.com
- -----------------------------------------------The Book of Drastic Resolutions
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #340
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