>food song.
I didn't say this -- I said they would not learn Spirit Magic from the Aldrya cult, and that for them Food Song would be an inate ability, not a spell.
>I disagree. There are shamans of Aldrya.
I said that there were shamans among elves, though again not shamans of Aldrya -- any elf shaman is a shaman of Aldrya, because all elves are part of Aldrya.
>SM:>There is no need for a cult of Aldrya among
>SM:>elves, since they are each a part of Aldrya.
>
>Nonesuch and Nonsense. Bah! Humbug! Phooey! No more true than that
storm
>worshippers are part of Orlanth. Aldrya is the spirit of the forest.
She
>mystically communicates with elves by the song. This does not create an
>identity on the mundane plane.
>
Actually, your anology is not quite accurate. Orlanthi are NOT "part of"
Orlanth, they are his descendants, but they are not literally part of the
mind of Orlanth. One of the current theories is that elves are literally
each a component of Aldrya, such that they make a large consciousness,
with some individuality as well. If you agree with this (as I mostly do),
then there really is no such god as Aldrya, because she is not a god, not
even an ancestor -- she is a name for the "Group Mind" of the elves.
>SM:>Now, these abilities can be represented as Divine
>SM:>spells, but this seems clumsy to me. Few if any would
>SM:>have a set duration, and few would have much of a
>SM:>range -- as far as you can throw the seed, that would be
>SM:>about it. The POW sacrifice seems OK to me, I guess,
>SM:>though I'd be happier with a different mechanic, though
>SM:>one which still costs the elf something.
>
>The sorcery mechanics might fit better from a rules standpoint, but I
think
>the crucial point is that the magic is goddess-powered, so is divine
magic.
Since I don't believe Aldrya is actually a goddess in the sense that Divine Magic implies, we are really talking about two completely different things.
David Cake <davidc_at_cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
more on gods
>
>There are also ruling gods that do
>not have multiple rune levels (Godunya, for example).
I don't think you can really speak of Godunya as being a "god" or having a "cult" in the same sense you would of Orlanth, or Yelm. Kralorelan mysticism is not going to work the same as Theyalan or even Kralorelan theism, in my opinion. Hence, Godunya really doesn't have _any_ rune levels.
>so I can't say I agree with Steves theory as a proscriptive one. But as
a
>predictive one? Sure, ruling gods generally have multiple rune levels,
>joined cults generally have multiple rune levels. And I'm sure there are
>some other guys with multiple rune levels for other reasons.
>
I could agree with this. I presented and then argued for my theory in a
very clumsy manner; you are much clearer. My theory should have said --
"cults which have merged will have two (or more) rune levels", but that
other cults might have other rune levels for other reasons. In fact, this
should have been obvious to me, since Orlanth Rex is NOT a cult which
merged into Orlanth, it is one which was created by Alakoring as a new
subcult for a new aspect of Orlanth.
>SM
>> As for the ruling gods, I note that all but one (Orlanth) have
shamans,
>> and that none of the other cults have shamans.
>
> I agree with Alex. Basically, Stephen is wrong - Yelm is the
>obvious counter example. There are several ruling gods with no shamans.
I don't think I said that ALL Ruling Gods would have shamans, I said that most of the cults with both priests and shamans were Ruling Cults. I never once tried to claim that Yelm had shamans, nor Ernalda (also a ruling deity).
> Another point - I think the role of Rune Lord as separate to
both
>Priest and Ruler is a very late development in most societies - in more
>primitive cults the status of Acolyte takes almost the same role (ie
>telmori wolf warrior), though less developed and thus lesser in status.
I agree with this as well -- in many ways, cults like Urox and Babeester Gor (and even Humakt) are more primitive than Orlanth or Ernalda, as the narrow focus of the solely warrior aspect requires less cultural sophistication than agriculture, etc.
In many ways, the title Rune Lord is now misleading, colored as it is for many (most?) of us because of RQ2. Better to call them warrior priests or something like that, perhaps?
> I agree quite thoroughly. The social role of the ruling
priesthood
>has been taken by the Storm Voices. If there was a Orlanthi shamanic
>status, they would be under great pressure from the Storm Voices unless
in
>a clearly defined less role (in which case they would probably die out).
>There are no shamans of Orlanth for the same reason there are no priests
of Waha.
>
In the case of Orlanth, the Godi class probably fills the role of the
shaman in my theory. Especially as Jeff Richards defines the Godi (whcih
I accept with some quibbles).
>> Orlanth in RQ3
>> seems clearly a merger of two cults I feel are better left separate,
>> Thunderous and Adventurous, plus the Rex "subcult".
>
>I agree with Alex - I think these are clearly the same cult in RQ terms,
>due to shared initiation. And I'm not sure that they were ever separate
>cults - I tend to think the Orlanth Wind Lord developed out of the
acolyte status.
>
Well, in RQ2, the two cults were specifically stated as being separate,
to the point where they could be considered Associate Cults, and give
each other Divine spells. When I have talked to Greg about this at
various times in the last few years, he has indicated that they ARE
separate cults in many areas -- some Sartar tribes worship Orlanth
Adventurous without worshiping Thunderous, some Thunderous without
Adventurous. Some worship Orlanth Dragonslayer without either Thunderous
OR Adventurous. He has also indicated that some might worship Orlanth Rex
or Orlanth Lightbringer as their Orlanth cult. This has led me to favor a
modular cult format for the Orlanth cult -- shared initiation, then you
fill in the main aspect, subcults, and associates depending on your
tribe's mythology.
>
Stephen Martin
ilium_at_juno.com
- -----------------------------------------------The Book of Drastic Resolutions
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