I'm afraid this is mostly bluster in the ongoing Kitori/elf argument. Sorry folks, leap to the end if you're not interested.
>The way I work around this for my (elf-munching Troll)
>Woods, is to keep the elves in the tree-tops and the Trolls on the
>ground.
Which, as far as I can tell, just makes it all the more likely that the elves will very quickly die.... The Uz are not going to let an elf go just because its up a tree (they can always sling it to death until it falls out). And once they catch it, the elf has no easy means of escape. And the trolls have human allies, even human Orlanthi allies. I really can't think that the elves are going to survive for long.
And as for the original idea that spawned the elf idea anyway - sure, trolls like trees. And they even like to eat vegetation. But are they going to eat the whole forest? I don't think so. Unless the troll population is very heavy, its quite unlikely that they will eat the trees faster than new trees grow. In fact, humans, who deliberately clear the trees for agriculture far faster than they could use them, destroy trees much faster than trolls.
Now, in Dagori Inkarth maybe, were there are occasional trollkin population explosions rampaging across the land eating everything. But I don't think there are piles of wild food trollkin in Kitori lands. Maybe the Kitori practice population control on their trollkin? Quite probably their trollkin are on the whole more civilised (due to the predominance of the trollkin friendly Argan Argar cult).
>If theres a substantial population of elfses lurking about the sylvan
>canopy, mr Uz is going to think twice before messing with the trees.
If there is a substantial population of elfes lurking about in troll territory, mr Uz is going to spend a great deal of (largely enjoyable) time killing them all.
>I have already stolen it for the Uz in Koramondol. And it may be an
>ancient tradition anywhere where The Uz and Arayami(sp) are forced to
>get along somewhat.
they have elves in Koromondol? I didn't even think they had forests. And again, I think Koromondol trolls would probably just kill the little woody bastards. Why do you think of it as being a troll/elf custom? It seems to me it would more likely be a troll.
>Now I'm really confused...Does it contradict some published/unpublished
>source to assume there *are* elves in the Troll Woods?
No. Does it violate any to assume that there aren't? Certainly no published source mentions them, though they do mention the trolls and humans.
And I'm sorry, but to me, to assume that there are any elves left in an area called 'the Troll Woods' where trolls have lived for well over a thousand years violates common sense.
> My original
>motivation for putting elves in the Troll Woods was that it wasn't *always*
>the Troll Woods. I had assumed elves might have been there first,
>spontaneously generated by the forest, helping the trees survive the
>Darkness.
Are Aldryami spontaneously generated? Not AFAIK, but I'm not really sure where they come from. Actually, I think dryads are spontaneously generated, but elves 'are associated with particular species of tree', so if the Troll Woods are of a species of tree without an associated species of elf, then no elves. Perhaps the Spider Woods redwoods have no associated elf species? Or perhaps the spiders simply ate 'em all.
The Spider Woods, BTW, remain as a good example to show that there certainly exist woods in Glorantha with no elves at all living in them. Why shouldn't the Troll Woods be the same? I certainly think there should be at least two woods in Glorantha without any elves, is this too much to ask?
Anyway, even if there where originally elves there, I think around 1500 years of troll occupation would be more than enough to wipe them out.
Certainly, the existence of the custom implies that there are at least enough elves that they all get to check every tree every few days. Which would be more than enough that the Uz (and their human allies, who are awake during the day) would be aware of them. Its quite a lot of elves, really. 2000 elves, as you suggest, is a huge number to have living in the area and still presume that most Uz don't understand what they are.
>I had imagined a grudging respect (read: superstitious avoidance)
>between these groups, mediated by the earth cult of Ernalda.
Even though neither the trolls nor elves revere Ernalda particularly? Yes, well. Of course. I find it particularly hard to believe that the trolls revere Ernalda more than they revere the elf hating/eating Karg and Tree Chopper. And we won't even mention Zorak Zoran (particularly strong among the troll wood trolls, due to the proximity of the Footprint). Remember, it only takes one really efficient troll elf-killing program in the last 1500 years to wipe them out.
Stephen says
[Troll Woods are nice and shady as trolls like it]
>How else could the trolls manage this without the help of elves?
Look, big trees can grow without needing elves around. If anyone is so pedantic as to actually request proof that it is possible, the Spider Woods are a proof by example. The non-existence of elves within the Spider Woods is well documented in Drastic, Stephen. I rather imagine the Troll Woods as being blessed by the Lady of the Wilds, if anyone, and to be untamed and scary, quite unlike the managed Aldryami woods.
>Unless the trolls worship some sort of elf-troll half-breed hero?
AARGH! I'm beginning to get to a strangely James Fruzetta like state ofmind, where if I did change my mind and decide that elves lived in the Troll Woods, I'd want to lead an Uz crusade to wipe 'em out anyway.
Look, I certainly don't think this idea is neccessary, thus invoking Occams razor on the need for elves in the Troll Woods. Given that there is not a need for the elves, it to my mind (and quite a few others, it seems) seem rather implausible, that a fairly hostile force of elves might survive 1500 years in a troll dominated woods. I think the Kitori are unique and interesting enough without dumping a strange relationship with elves infesting their woods as well.
Carolyn again
>I still think you're missing the point, that Ernalda is the mother/wife
>cult of the Kitori <humans & Uz of the Troll Wood> and the fems arn't going
>to be interested in some pogrom obsessed warriors telling them what to do,
>or who to hang out with, and Aldrya is an associated cult of Ernalda.
The religion of the Kitori is a common argument on the list, but I certainly agree that the human clans of the Kitori revere Ernalda. I don't think the Uz do particularly - KL is still their great mother deity - but they at least give Ernalda some respect. But I don't think that Aldrya is an associated cult of Ernalda in the Troll Woods. The Kitori just don't believe those particular stories. And why should they?
>I'm *Certainly* not trying to insert elves into
>your game, just looking for a good reason why they wouldn't be in mine, or
>anyone elses.
Well, good. Because trying to convince us all of the elves seems a bit of a losing fight - though the basic idea was cool, just not appropriate to the Kitori.
>I guess my Troll Woods need them, because when we started
>really looking at Trolls + humans + beetles, we didn't want to cram the
>place with so many hunter/gather/herders that the woods would look all
>sketchy and fake like D&D, or be ecologically doomed.
I don't think the inhabitants of the Troll Woods are herders much, though quite a few hunter/gatherers. A lot of the Kitori human clans live outside the troll woods, and have fields like everyone else. If you want to keep the place ecologically balanced, I'd tend towards some sort of beetle/trollkin eating predator, perhaps spiders, praying mantises, etc. Something just smart enough not to attack anything as big as an uz or human regularly, thus not being a dangerous enough threat that it gets wiped out. I like the idea of termites - one major reason that the termites don't get out of control is that the uz eat them by choice, then.
Someone who claims to be James, curiously pro-elf (what have you done with
the real James?)
>Are ZZites banned from Kitori lands? If a minority of trolls was
>running around espousing my Elf Pogrom while most were espousing
>co-existence, the first group wouldn't fit in real well.
I'd think when you live next door to the Footprint, you would tend to encourage the ZZers. The ZZers just wouldn't get too uppitty and displace the Kargs sons and Argan Argari precisely because they have the Footprint to worry about - the occasional ZZer becomes a big leader among the Kitori, but most of them are more interested in fighting Chaos than other trolls. I'd think eliminating the ZZers to protect the elves would be definately not a survival tactic! Get rid of the ZZers to save the trees only to have the tribe raided by scorpion men a year or two later.
BTW - love the email address, James.
As Carolyn requested, my official sources on the Kitori are mostly Troll pak and the 'Another Argrath' story in KOS. The Broken Council Guidebook is the source for early history. There is also stuff in RQA#4, but I disagree with most of it. I specifically dislike the idea that the Kitori religion is a KL/Orlanth marriage. But a lot of my conceptions of the Kitori come out of thinking about it myself, arguing about it and discussing it on the digest, and talking to people I consider fairly knowledgeable about the area, both in person and via email (Stephen M, Jeff Richards, Joerg). This is pretty much how things go around here - think of a nice idea, toss it out, see what people who have thought a lot about the subject think. Just be prepared for it to be shot down... a few of my favoured ideas have certainly gone down in flames. Then again, a few of those that attracted savage criticism at one point may yet survive.
Kitori religion - I think they definately worship Argan Argar the ruler god. I won't bore people with the reasons why, but it has been said to be so by Greg and Sandy and various points in the past. Its probably a good idea to get away from the idea that KL is a mother goddess - she is more a primal ancestress, and the KL cult is more than half Ancestor Worship. I think both the trolls, and the humans, worship their ancestors - but the trolls include the Seven Sacred Ancestors (including Karg) and the humans don't much. Both include Voraz Kitor, of the First Council, as an ancestor. Among the Kitori, I envision Orlanth as being worshipped as a Storm god, Orlanth Thunderous and Barntar (out of the woods, obviously), but not as the ruling god. Argan Argar is the ruling god - and they all revere the Only Old One, the true king of Kethaela, as his true manifestation (the current human clans are descended from 1300s political refugees).
And Stephen Martin, I think when Carolyn the self-described newbie asks us to cite sources it is a different thing from when you ask us. Providing general sources for those new to Glorantha who don't know where to start is something I'm happy to do when asked, providing precise sources for people who already have read everything is another. Not to flame you or anything, but in context the request to cite sources means very different things coming from Gloranthan neophytes and from someone who has read virtually everything in print and a lot more besides.
I'm probably going to be putting a fair bit of effort into the Kitori in the near future, with an aim towards publication somewhere. I'll certainly be very pleased to hear suggestions from anyone on the digest, though I've obviously already got some opinions. So please email or post your ideas about these lovable guys.
>>Anyone want to classify Sandy?.....I think he's really Dayzatar....
>
>Dorastran.
Which explains the well known Sandy fascination for big ugly weird monsters. It fits all too well.
Cheers
David
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #453
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