Apologies in advance for the heated tone but the debate for some unknown reason has turned nasty. I was prefectly willing to leave it at Sandy's post.
>I can't understand why Peter Metcalfe is so adamant to ignore the great
>amount of evidence - published and unpublished - on the Dawn Age southwest
>of Genertela with comparatively advanced beast totem people just to fit the
>retrofitted ideal of the God Learned Hsunchen.
I'm not ignoring anything. I said the Basmoli did not have 'iron armour, sorcery and aeons of experience' but said later on that they were as advanced as the Rathori or the Shan Shan Hsunchen. Perhaps you are unaware that the Rathori have been described as having 'a culture more complex than the usual hsunchen, approaching the level of the barbarian cultures' and that the society of the Shan Shan Hsunchen support crafters and nobles. Both are mentioned in the Genertela Player's Book.
Me>>It's helpful to remember exactly *when* the Book of Kings was
>>written.
>Only a couple of years before the account of King Palashee from KoS was
>written.
ie around 1968 or so. We are talking really aged sources here.
Me>>At that point in time, the precise, nay even the
>>general specifics of Malkioni religion had not been sorted out.
>True. However, it is not like the specifics had been sorted out when the God
>Learners - adherents of the Malkioni religion, if I am not greatly mistaken
>- - and the Arkati - sort of Malkioni religion, anyway - were described in
>CoT, or for God of Glorantha and Genertela Book.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^And how many years are these books *after* the book of Kings? Then why bring them up for crying out loud?
>Genertela Box makes it
>quite evident that Greg didn't change his mind on his unpublished history of
>Hrestol and his ancestors and/or religion - it keeps quite a lot of names
>explained _only_ in the Book of Kings for the early Malkioni.
So? Am I somehow disputing this? What I am arguing, for your information, is the precise cultural details (to wit, Pendali Sorcerers) which these people are said to have had.
Joerg then follows with a series of curious paraphases that misrepresent what was argued (for reasons best known to himself).
>Peter insists that the Seshnegi fought naked savages in their campaign to
>conquer the land. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I described the Doraddi as 'naked savages', *not* the Basmoli. And I have argued for Basmoli being less sophisticated than the Book of Kings makes out on the grounds that they are *Hsunchen*.
><Peter insists that Greg changed his mind on everything he
>has written in his formation period of Glorantha,
Since when have I ever said this? I merely said that the description of Pendali sorcerers among other things was likely to be invalid. I am arguing about *cultural* details, dammit!
>I ask Peter to
>give me proof that nothing Greg wrote back then stands as background for the
>West any more, and also his vast sources on how the West really was in the
>Dawn Age.
Strangely enough, Joerg does not accept the 'Dehori are not Trolls although I once said they were' example from Trollpak, or rather he concedes the point but then remarks ultracryptically that the concept is still valid. Eh? So are Dehori Trolls or not? He also supplies the mention that the Pendali worship Yelm.
However I shall provide another. In Jonat's Saga, Greg writes about Galaninae 'chariot riders' who take over the remains of Seshnela before the Luatha sink it (in 1020 ST). Are we going to have Joerg with his Book of Kings literalist inerrarcy argue that the Galaninae really did use chariots despite the widespread availability of *stirrups* four centuries before?
Furthermore ToTRM#13 describes in the Crusades article:
'Prince Hrestol discovered the power [of the crusade] when his foes, the kings of the hated Basmoli savages, invoked...' ^^^^^^^
Which counts as a point against Joerg's Everything in the Book of Kings is Literally True Crusade, given that the article is objective.
>[The Enerali, Telmori and Basmoli all had great cities], comparable to
>pre-Dawn Dara Happan cities.
They had cities and I have said as much (even pointing out that the information is in the Genertela Book, remember?). Whether they reached the standard of pre-Dawn Dara Happan Cities is an unsupported leap of logic.
>>>At least I got rebuffed when I suggested a similar theory
>>>for the Vingkotling entry into Genertela.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>[...]and there is no evidence for a Vingkotling 'migration'.
>Then why the differentiation into summer and winter tribes? What about the
>myth about Elem(al)pur, and the invasions into the Oslir Lowland?
I'm sorry. I had was under the impression that the theory referred to your pet theory [listed in http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha/ storm_history.html] which postulated pastoralists taking over agriculturalists. When shifting the context of the debate (ie from the Vingkotling migration _into_ Genertela to that _within_ Genertela), it is *helpful* to signal the fact.
>To wit:
>> 'Ancient Seshnegi documents demonstrate clearly that
>> the language spoken by the Hsunchen Basmoli invaders
>> of the second century is essentially identical to the
>> language spoken by the relic tribes surviving today
>> in Ralios and Prax.
>I like the "Hsunchen Basmoli invaders of the second
>century" bit - <sarcasm> it makes it evident that Seshnela had been the
>Malkioni homeland since creation, doesn't it? </sarcasm>
In the same way as Germany invaded Poland, I suppose.
>Didn't it ever cross your mind that this text might be a weeny little bit
>biased, Peter?
Get a clue. I'm not quoting it to show the Basmoli were not in Seshnela at the Dawn, I'm quoting it as evidence of the Basmoli migrations from Pamaltela, something which you *denied*. And it is not a biased historical document, it is a rules-related text which you would have found if you looked at the citation. BTW the very next paragraph could be interpreted either way as to whether the Basmoli were civilized.
>> The noted Jrusteli scholar Dakon Ven Dalorin
>A colleague of the scholar who demonstrated the extinction of green elves in
>Enkloso, if not the same person?
So? The Elves could have been extinct through the nefarious machinations of the God Learners. They reappeared shortly before 1020 ST through unknown events but we don't know enough of what happened to disprove this.
>> demonstrated in 998 that the Basmoli living
>> in Tarien (who may now be extinct) also spoke this same
>> language.'
>Which is stretching credibility a bit, given that the Tarian lion people are
>of agimori race.
Huh? I've heard it posted that the Praxian Basmoli are similarly Agimori in descent (rastafarian haircuts for the men and all that) so I don't see why the Seshnegi Basmoli should not be.
>> 'In Pamaltela, the Basmoli only know that their god
>> marched northwards with a horde of followers, and still
>> await a triumphant return'
>Nice one. So Basmol the Pamaltelan lion god left his native people in
>Pamaltela, went to Seshnela where he spawned the Pendali nation, and left
>off with a horde of followers to invade Prax? I doubt that to some extent.
The linguistic evidence supports a migration of Basmoli from Pamaltela. IMO the Seshnegi Basmoli and the Praxian Basmoli are two different tribes who split up sometime during the migration. Your scenario is a constructed strawman.
>>Non sequitur. King Froalar also married Seshna Likita and founded
>>the Serpent Kings Dynasty but nobody would suggest that the Malkioni
>>are indigenous to Seshnela.
>Except the source you quoted above.
What source was this? And given that I'm not denying the Basmoli married Seshna Likita, why are you saying that I am rejecting _everything_ in the Book of Kings?
>>Since Sidana is a patron of incest which is not AFAIK a
>>Basmoli practice, it seems to me that the Basmoli supplanted the
>>Sidanings when they invaded.
>I'm no biologist, but isn't it a fact that the leading lion of a pride will
>mate with his own daughters? Or, if he happens to replace the leading lion
>of his mother's pride, that he will mate with his mother as with all other
>females?
Seems unlikely to me. You'll have to do more than supply an supposition. Perhaps a citation from the Book of Kings perhaps as to whether the Pendali practiced incest? What? It is silent? How *interesting*.
>>The Wenelians were Haralding Orlanthi (or at least King Vathmai was).
>Lalmor of the Vathmai seems to have been a Theyalan king who set off with
>his tribe to Slontos and spread the Lightbringers' cults there. He may or
>may not have been a Haranding.
I erred here in claiming him to be a Haranding. However he is a Slontosan who do trace their lineage from Orlanth, "just as the haraldings (sic) do".
>The RuneQuest Companion doesn't state in any way that the Pralori oppressed
>the Entruli any more than vice versa:
Because I am not relying on the RuneQuest companion for the Pralori oppression but the Broken Council Guidebook.
'The Council came to Slontos in 115, and found a people oppressed by elk-folk from the Pralorela. We helped King Lalmor free his people and they eagarly joined our World Council of Friends'.
>Do you claim that no information is better than outdated
>information, Peter?
No. Do you wilfully spread lies about what people say in a debate?
>>>What you call "True Basmoli" was what the exile people became after being
>>>pushed out of Tanisor as well.
>>And somehow degenerated into carbon copies of their lifestyle
>>before they started to learn sorcery?
>Underwent the same crushing defeat as their Praxian kin had ages earlier?
Did the crushing defeat of Syranthir Forefront by the God Learners cause his ten thousand to regress into neanderthal cavemen?
>I doubt that the similarities in cults, custom and myth were as great as
>they became when the God Learners started to push all beast totems into
>their Hsunchen systematics.
How could the God Learners do this? The Basmoli lived in regions beyond their control in Tarien, Prax, the East Wilds and the Shan Shan. To enforce a uniformity of myth, they have to directly remake all these cultures by constant re-education not just cast great spells from afar.
>>Perhaps the Serpent Kings were killed in the Second Century
>>Basmoli invasions?
>Why do you reject the information from the Book of Kings (which details the
>fall of the Serpent King dynasty) in favour for wild speculations?
Learn to read. I don't know what the Book of Kings said and *speculated* that they might have been killed off iven that there were Basmoli invasions in the second century. I have not rejected out of hand what the Book of Kings says.
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