>I just want to state a couple of points Peter disagrees with:
>The Pendali were not Hsunchen at the time Hrestol lived.
At least some of them were which I've implied right back from the very beginning.
>They worshipped fully-fledged gods rather than measly beast spirits.
Just because they are Hsunchen does not mean they are limited to Lion spirits. In addition to Rathor, the Rathori worship Agikoros the Fire God, Silent Stalker the Hunter, Enimipol the Beast Mother, Dog Brother, Thanz the acorn spirit, Burrowing Toad Mother and Bluben. I and many Rathori would be very suprised to hear them dismissed as 'measly beast spirits'.
Joerg is also apparently ignorant that Shamanistic Cultures can achieve a high degree of urban sophistication to wit the Maya (cf "Forest of Kings" by Linda Schele). In addition, shamans in glorantha can achieve a great range of magical effects that can really be equalled by civilized cultures. Look at Nomad Gods or what Sheng Seleris did at the Battle of Gardint. Put the early Malkioni on the recieving end. Do you still think that the Basmoli *must* have had sorcerers and worship fully-fledged gods?
>Some of them lived in cities, others had agriculture, and some had lion
>companions.
If Joerg believes that I disagree with any of this then he hasn't been following the debate very well. What I disagreed on was whether the Pendali had sorcerers and/or iron armour.
>Even if a source is old, detail information which has never been
>contradicted by any later publication is still valid.
But it has been contradicted in *parts*. Thus slavishly insisting that we follow the rest in *all* particulars is an exercise for the braindead in futility.
Hasni Mubarak:
>For one, I have allways believed that when a Gloranthan looks at the sky
>and sees the Sun, she believes that it is PHYSICALLY Yelm.
Only if he or she is a Pelorian or those influenced by the Pelorians. Everyone in Glorantha believes that the Sun is a source of wonder in the Heavens and that it is inherently numinous. They disagree on the *minor* details (like what the Sun's name is, how he or she should be worshipped etc). The Westerners do not believe the Sun is Yelm according to Wyrms Footprints:
"Ehilm is the name used in the Western Lands of
Genertela and it became widespread during the
Second Age, sometimes completely replacing the
local name".
Likewise, the Pentans believe the Sun to be Kargzant. It's not a question of 'is this god the same as that one?' for the Sun (and other) cults in different places are different. It's a question about 'they say the Sun is X whereas we know that the Sun is Y, how can this be so?' and how the cultures resolve this question. Most people resolve it by saying 'The people who say that the Sun is X are complete and utter morons. Let them be/wipe them out/educate them {strike out inapplicable responses}'.
>However, I think that some of the "Pantheons" are necc. incomplete.
>For instance, the entire Earth Pantheon doesn't ever exist independent.
>It (AFIK) is allways tied in with another cult.
That is because the Earth Pantheon (described in RQ3 Book V) is a fiction invented to a certain extent by the God Learners. Mostal has never been part of an Earth Pantheon as long as any True Mostali can remember. Pamalt has always been confined to the South and has never found in Genertela.
But the Esrolian Pantheon is probably the closest to an Earth Pantheon and it does exist independantly in Esrolia where it rules the Husbands and not the other way around (as in other lands). The Elf Pantheon is more dissimilar than the God Learner conception as it is moulded by the inhuman perceptions of the elves. Finally Pamalt leads an Earth Pantheon in his own right and he cares naught for what the God Learners think it should be like.
David Dunham:
Me>> I don't think that Godunya *knew* he was the
>> Emperor in hiding until he passed the tests. During his
>> pre-imperial lifetime, he would have been an ordinary
>> belt-buckle salesman
>Assuming 100+ year old salesman are normal...
'almost a century' is stated in the Genertela Book. If he was born during the Dragons Awakening Shudder (which is stated to be the time when Godunya broke free from the New Dragons Ring) then he would have been at the most seventy three years of age when he was enthroned.
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