Also, it seems that i've stirred up the hornet's nest again with the subjective-objective debate. If others things this is a waste of bandwidth on the Digest, I will contact those I'm discussing this with and take this to e-mail.
To everyone who has replied to my "How did you get into Glorantha
poll"... Thanks for replying! I hope to have results collated in about a
week, once I get responses from the majority of Digest contributors.
Please
mailto:remster_at_interport.net your replies, and thanks for your
participation!
> > From: Chris Bell <remster_at_interport.net>
> > I'm confused by this. How can Orlanth be 'well disposed' to the Red
> > Goddess for doing one thing, and still be at odds for her actions in
> > annother case?
> Well, to take a RW example, I can be well-disposed to you for asking good
> questions about Peloran/Orlanthi relations, be at odds with your actions
> of quoting the entire Digest in the process, and be impressed by your
> prompt apology. Does that help?
I can see that. Thank you for beinu understanding in regards to my lousy editing skills ;)
>
> From: Michael Schwartz <mschwartz_at_mindspring.com>
> All Hail the Reaching Storm!
Woo Hoo! a man after my own heart!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: Martin Laurie <MLaurie_at_compuserve.com>
> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:51:48 -0400
> Subject: Subjectivism - missing the sodding point
>
> I'm a bit choked.
>
> It seems to me that certain "objectivists" are of the opinion
> that a subjective viewpoint is an attempt to sabotage the =
>
> monomyth because us subjectivists are evil terrorists trying
> desperately hard to ruin the nice, safe and easily understood
> version of Glorantha that the monomyth promoted.
Subjectivists, terrorists? Never! Just folks with different viewpoints. MGF rules, beyond all else.
> This is utter bollocks
I'd agree. There's no possible way I can ruin your Glorantha, or you ruin mine, Martin.
> The whole point of the subjective view is that _anything_ created,
> worshipped or viewed with cultural prejudice WILL be subjective.
Ah, I disagree. If the full truth of something is not known, then perhaps viewpoints regarding the subject may be subjective, but if the subject itself has phenomena that manifest within the world, there must be a cause for that particular phenomena. It seems to me that we disagree on what causes that phenomena.
> The Dara Happans aren't right, the Orlanthi aren't right, the
> Malkioni aren't right because there _is_ no right!
> Its patently bloody obvious to anyone who has studied even basic =
> school history from differing points of view but most of us don't
> because actually acknowledging that our culture might be wrong or =
> not completely right is a bit disturbing, a bit too close to the =
> mark.
<Paragraph concerning military history snipped. Informative, BTW!>
That's not necessarily MY point, either. The USA has comitted many heinous crimes across the course of it's history. Does this make my nation evil? Perhaps, perhaps not. In my points that I've raised on the digest perhaps Ive expressed distate for the Lunar Empire and Pelorian/Dara Happan culture (Divine right of rulers to command the populace, large slave farms, no means of legitimate dissent as a cultural mechanism...) This doesn't mean that all Pelorians are bad. But I do disagree with the aims of the Lunar Government and it's sponsor, the Red Goddess, as of 1621 ST. IMO, the Lunars were created to be (a) an analogue to the Roman Empire at it's height, and (b) an adversary to a somewhat sympathetic group of analogues to Celts/Germanic types who live in a region that suspiciously resembles northern scotland... all IMO. I'm sure that there are noble Lunar patriots that only want the best for their fellow man, and scummy Sartarite despots. But, for my personal reasons, I prefer what the Sartarites and the so-called Barbarian tribesman of Sartar stand for.
How will a Gloranthan be any different? In fact,
> given their terrible communication tech and the paucity of written
> works, it is likely that a Gloranthan will be monumentally more
> hidebound in their cultural beliefs than anyone in the RW.
What we're talking about here is not the nature of what the typical Gloranthan believes, but what is actually in existences within the God Time and the nature of Gloranthan Mythic reality. These issues are vitally important because the the nature of Gloranthan Reality itself arises from the action of Myth. To say that Gloranthan Myth is but a cultural construct is to say that Gloranthan Reality in and of itself is to varying degrees false.
> If this principle is taken as obvious and sure the the nature
> of worship and magic in Glorantha must be then examined because
> the magic will be subjective too and so will the myths and so,
> therefore, will the Gods.
As I've stated before in other posts to the digest, I feel that the faces that we see of the Gods are partial influenced by the worship of their followers, but their fundamental natures and mythic acts remain the same. For example, King West Wind in Pent and Orlanth are two ways of seeing Primal Storm. I subscribe to the belief that the events as described in the Lightbringer Myths did happen in God Time, but the influences that worshippers have on the nature of Myth and God Time by their interaction with it via worship (the dreams, hopes and so on that are part and parcel of all those MP's and POW sacrificed, if you'd like to use RQ game terms) have created the differences we see across Glorantha.
> To suggest that the Orlanthi monomyth is RIGHT is insane. It =
> means that every other culture in Glorantha is WRONG and frankly =
> this is so illogical it makes my teeth hurt.
Apologies for causing your teeth pain, Martin. :( Then, I ask.. Who is? To say that no myth is correct means that all Gloranthan Myth is a lie.
To suggest that the
> Gods are real and manipulate their worshippers runs into the =
> problem that the Gods myths don't match, that the worhsippers
> views don't match and the worship itself varies depending on the
> area and culuural inclinations of the said worhsippers - yet they
> still get the magic their worship defines! If this is undoubltedly =
> true, which it is, then how the hell are the gods these immutable =
> sefl-aware entities that fiddle with the universe?
The Alternative? Gods are simply impersonal power sources, templates and filling stations from which to get spells for going through the right motions. To say that the Gods don't have an independent existence of their worshippers robs them of their uniqueness and fun potential, IMO. It also implies that Gloranthan Theists are simply chumps who have no idea about the true nature of the powers they use. It also robs the universe of the meaningful potentials of faith and religion in Roleplaying... For myself personally, it helps me suspend disbelief when I RP and I know that the Gods are real and that the realtionship that my Sword of Humakt or 7 Mothers Rune Lord has with his or her deity is a real, immediate, and personal one. In a world without true, real, objective gods, this reduces Rune Masters to the status of mere technicians. A subjective Glorantha also raises problems for myself personally of what the causes are behind DI, Spirits of Reprisal, and so on.
Oh, BTW, Deities can't fiddle with the universe, directly, anymore. It's forbidden by the Compromise!
>
> It doesn't work, its not logical and its a fallacious argument.
I feel that I've made my points clearly. A subjective universe is in my opinion just as illogical, at least for me.
> The hoary old argument of "Well I don't like subjective views =
> because as a GM I don't know whats real and as a GM I want the =
> absolute truth in a book somewhere." really annoys me. As a GM
> of many games, I've never needed to rely on a manual of what is
> right or wrong - I just do what I like to do and if a player =
> objects, well there're other GMs and other games - bye bye.
Well, My Glorantha is MY Glorantha. For my purposes of Storytelling, I
need to decide what the nature of the cosmos is, as while PC's adventure
and Quest,
the universe will be changing around them, both as a result of their
actions as well as the naturally occuring events and forces that occur
in my game world. Of course, please, do as you like! Far be it from me
to tell anyone how to run their game, and if I came off that way in the
Digest, it wasn't my intent. But, as one of the things which drew me to
RQ and Glorantha was the style of mythology that Stafford employs, which
has it's roots in Greek, Norse and other myths, I've always held the
view that the Gods in Glorantha had their own agendas, weaknessess,
strengths, and petty jealousies.
> In Glorantha, _your_ Glorantha, its your world. Do what you
> like but DON'T expect a nice book stating the "facts" of the Gods
> cos this is very boring indeed and not an accurate study of the
> way a Glorantha would be.
I never expected as such. But, in order for Glorantha to be an
internally consistent gaming and literary universe, certain facts and
truths have to be decided, even if one of those 'truths' are that the
Gods are simply sources of energy with names, and have no free will, or
that no myth is truly correct.
>
> My feeling is that most objectivists love the depth of Glorantha
> only so long as they don't have to think about the consequences
> of its complexity. =
Well, this one doesn't, although I wouldn't place myself in as hard a position as Carl Fink. ;) Masks for the Primal Powers makes sense to me.
> If someone wants lots of information on a gameworld without any =
> social depth or attempt to show how divergent races, cultures and
> religions can interact over a long perios then there are plenty
> of TSR suppliments about the Forgotten Realms to buy. Go for it.
IMHO, This is possible, in an objective Glorantha. This is why I play RQ and am a fan of Glorantha.
To Summarise and Paraphrase -
I fully feel that all of the cultures of Glorantha have a degree and measure of truth to their Magic and their god worship. They'd have to, otherwise their Gods wouldn't be there to provide spells and magic! However, in the mists of the Godtime human understanding can only peirce so far. Humans, being fallible and having Chaos as well as the other runes in their makeup, will interpret (or misinterpret) what is discovered during the various HeroQuests and worship that make up Gloranthan life. Thus, folks may not even hear about the deeds of Gods that occure outside their culture, or may have totally wrong ideas about them. This is okay! The nature of the God Time is malleable to a degree, and will change according to how worshippers interact with it. Worshippers will leave a certain degree of their own cultural views impressed upon the Godtime, molding the Gods slightly so that they can understand, and be served by the Gods, better. The Justreli took advantage of this principle in their God Learner experiments... In a totally subjective Glorantha, the world would never have struck back against the God Learners, as the Gods and spirits who were abused would never have had the awareness to do so!
As is obvious, we each have our own Glorantha. However, I feel that there is a true Glorantha out there. However, it is a mysterious and subtle thing, not easily discerned. Except for obvious broad themes and principles, that Truth is not readily seen. No one culture has the exclusive claim to truth in Glorantha. I find Theyalan Myth useful for my gaming purposes. All cultures in Glorantha (yes, even those darn Lunars that I love to hate so much! ;) have a measure of the truth. IMO, there IS an objective Glorantha out there... we just have to find it, as the literary creation and world that is Glorantha evolves.
> From: <Styopa_at_iname.com>
> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:34:39 -0500
> Subject: AH(tm) job posting
>
> Anyone else notice the job posting at the Avalon Hill website (tm)?
> Runequest designers wanted.
>
> So, if I understand correctly, we have a game that has been moribund but for
> the tireless efforts of a (relatively) tiny community of die hards which
> will now be the focus of efforts of not one but TWO gaming companies?
Wow. Never thought I would hear this. Perhaps AH is planning on designing their own Non-Gloranthan game world? Perhaps AH feels the time is ripe for a revamped RQ to attempt to challenge TSR? Without Glorantha, not bloody likely, methinks.
> - -Steve Lieb
>
> From: David Dunham <dunham_at_pensee.com>
> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 18:09:58 -0700
> Subject: Re: Rebellus Terminus; Lunar Orlanthi
>
> Chris Bell wondered
>
> > A question in regards to Pelorian Rebellious Terminous... In Peloria,
> > does he actually have worship, and a cult?
>
> Whatever for? No more than the Orlanthi worship Wakboth. Both are simply
> part of the mythology.
Chaos Gods are worshipped, and most are antagonist deities in various nearby pantheons. I can actuall envision a Cult of Wakboth amongst Chaos Creatures! Wakboth may hold the position withing Chaos that Yelm holds as ruler of the Solar Pantheon. Also, Orlanth's enemy, Yelm has organised worship.
On a related note, is their an Orlanth Rebellious cult, one that emphasizes Orlanth's rebellion against Yelm and the other Solar deties? Such a subcult could perhaps find purchase in the vast slave-farms of Peloria, methinks. Fonrit would be too far.
>
> Erich Schmidt asked
>
> > What
> > is the difference between the natives of Sartar that causes such hatred when
> > none seems to exist in Saird, Aggar, etc.
> Several of us suspect that the Goddess may have married Orlanth (or at
> least her daughter married Orlanth's son, i.e. Hwarin Dalthippa and Ingkot
> Axe-and-a-Half) in Saird, so the different myths would present some
> problem.
My point exactly. The local aspects of Orlanth have been swallowed and subsumed by Lunar magical conquest, God-Learner style. The Storm God is literally struggling for survival! That's perhaps why his remaining free worshippers are so rabid in their defense of what free territory is left, at least in territories that are being attacked. In regards to Orlanthi lands that are nowhere near the Sartar/Peloria conflict, such as Ralios, the Orlanthi their have a different set of problems, so they don't worry about the Red Goddess overmuch, although I'm sure they've heard bad stories. I woud feel Ralians would be quite loathe to trust the Red Goddess, due to the Nysalor/Rashoran connection, and the circumstances surrounding the Red Moon's own birth (which in many ways were quite similar to Nysalor/Gbaji's.) as opposed to the Orlanth/Red Goddess conflict. The Stygian Heresy cults which exist further west would definitely be leary of Lunars! If my presumptions about Ralios are incorrect, someone please correct me.
> > I think that the worship of Orlanth in these subject countries
> > has been supplanted by Air gods friendly to the Moon such as Molanni
>
> I won't pretend to guess about Saird, but Aggar seems pretty Orlanthi.
> Molanni is probably considered a traitor to them as well as to the
> Sartarites.
How so, Dave? In the Genertela Box, in the section of 'What the Priestess of the Red Moon tells me', Molanni is named as the 'healed Air'. Wouldn't those friendly to the Red Moon at least consider her friendly to Orlanth's pantheon in Aggar, or is this a local mythic thing?
Chris Bell
mailto:remster_at_interport.net
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #495
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