Peace, Chris Bell
mailto:remster_at_Interport.net
> From: David Cake <davidc_at_cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:32:15 -0800
> Subject: Here we go again....
>
> Chris Bell <remster_at_interport.net> still glories in the ignorance of
> objectivism. Sorry to raise this one again, but I'm going to wave the flag
> once more.
>
> First, two Gloranthan facts. If you are going to skip most of this message,
> these are the important bits.
>
>The Gods do not have free will. Mentioned every time Greg talks about
>heroquesting, and has always been. Sure, the Orlanthi think this might be true. But >its not. The Gods are not always distinct. What is one god one place is sometimes two >some other places. The Pelandan cult of Entekos includes both the Dara Happan cults >of Dendara and Entekos. The Goddesses involved in the Goddess Switch are both almost >interchangeable, and not quite.
>
> Understand this - A God is not a Person.
In this, I fundamentally disagree. Please see my comments to Martin Laurie in my last post, especially about how I feel about God Masks.
> Lecture over - the important points made clear, now I'll talk about Chris's comments in detail.
>
> >When you talk about the Moon in Peloria, you ARE talking about the > >Moon in Glorantha.
>
> I apologise for my lack of clarity. I was using moon to mean the big thing in the sky, Moon to be the magical Lunar elemental power, the power of the Moon Rune if you want. Everyone believes in the moon - its a big red thing in the sky. Not everyone believes that Moon is an element, though, and certainly not everyone belives the big red thing in the skyused to be a woman from Torang.
Then, did, historically, was it a woman who heaved a big chunk of earth into her back, and flew up into the sky, or was it something else? Now, be careful, this is not a God Time event we're talking about... This is a historical Gloranthan event, that took place within Time. From my understanding, this is an event that had witnesses and was objectively verified.
> I don't accept anyones as Truth. As soon as you do, you restrict
> yourself to only understanding a very small part of Glorantha. If you
> accept Orlanthi myth as truth, you will never understand the Pelorians
> properly. And you will never understand the Doraddi at all. Never. I'm not
> willing to make that sacrifice just to avoid grappling with the difficult
> issues.
I see the point of this stance. I feel that underneath the cultural
baggage, there is an objective group of events that occured during the
murky depths of God Time. Debate here on the Digest has also made me
understand that all Gloranthan cultures have a degree of truth, or at
least fact, elsewise they would have no magic and no place in the world.
>
> >I'm confused by this. How can Orlanth be 'well disposed' to the Red
> >Goddess for doing one thing, and still be at odds for her actions in
> >annother case?
>
> Because Gods are Not People.
Again, I disagree. Where does Divine Intervention come from? Spirits of reprisal? I do not like a purely Humanocentric Gloranthan universe. Gods ARE People! They have quirks, vendettas, good points, and bad habits!
> In Sartar, the people of the Red Goddess do bad things to the
> people of Orlanth. So she is an enemy of Orlanth. In Saird, the people of
> the Red Goddess rule well over the people of Orlanth, and so they are not
> enemies. Some priests in Saird no doubt where able to prove that they were
> enemies. They died, and those who listened to them died - or in any case
> left the temples of Saird. Some priestesses of the Red Goddess are able to
> prove that she aided Orlanth. So she must be an ally.
When the Lunars conquered Saird, they subsumed the local manifestation of Orlanth into their pantheon with God Learner techniques. I ask this - - Orlanth worship has been outlawed in Sartar as of 1621 ST for political reasons as well as mythic ones. According to the River of Cradles book, the Red Emperor supposedly declares a year of celebration throughout the Lunar Empire to celebrate the death or Orlanth with the fall of Whitewall. Did the Lunar Authorities in Saird delcare this holiday, too? What if a Lunar Citizen from Saird who is initiated into a local Lightbringer cult of Saird (for example, Orlanth Rex?) travels to Peloria? How will he be treated? As one of the hostile Orlanthi, or a worshipper of the 'healed' Orlanth?
> Ask a god 'what do you think?' is the same as asking a god to
> express Free Will. They do not have Free Will. At best, you get your
> question back like a mirror.
> 'Is Shepelkirt a vile stain on existence?' Yes
> 'Is the Red Goddess who tamed Gagarth and his Sky Bears a useful
> ally of Orlanth?' Yes.
I feel that the Gods have full awareness, but that their freedom of action restricted by the Compromise (which I hold to as a universal cosmic set of laws, regardless of cultural views... Why do the Gods only take action via their worshippers? While the Compromise may not be believed in Per Se by members of differing cultures, all Gloranthan Deities seem to be restricted from operating directly within time, except in their traditional, pre-ordained roles in maintaing the world. Why does not Yelm strike evildoers down as they walk down the street, for example?
> (PS sneaky question - what about the Red Goddess, does she have
> free will? Sneaky answer - she does when she is incarnated as a mortal. She
> did have during her mortal life - and probably does not anymore. Which
> explains how she 'violated the Compromise' in Orlanthi terms.)
Her Freedom of Action is bound by the Compromise, but remember Cults of
Terror - "The Free Will of the Gods is in direct proportion to their
POWER IN THE WORLD (emphasis mine, paraphrasing.) Orlanth and Yelm have
very little freedom of action due to the immense power both deities
have... the same applies to the Red Goddess. However, as detailed in
the Compromise, The Red Goddess and other deities may interact with
their worshippers by lending their magic in exchange for worship, and
for mortals taking actions in the world that they wish. Thus, the Gods
act indirectly in the world.
> >> Its a political question as much as a religious one. <Snip>
> >
> > Gods are
> >not constructs, they have free will and directly involve themselves in
> >the lives of their worshippers.
>
> Precisely wrong. That Gods do not have free will has been said many
> times, by Greg and others. It has been the foundation mechanic of just
> about every HeroQuest draft, for starters (though sometimes in rather
> hamfisted way). The Orlanthi say its the Compromise (and claim the gods
> really do have free will just never use it - which amounts to exactly the
> same thing). Other cultures have other explanations. But nonetheless the
> truth is that the gods do not have free will.
Even though Greg and the other writers of works like Cults of Terror use the words Free Will, I think the term Freedom of Action serves better. Supposedly, if the Gods willingly violate the compromise, Chaos will be allowed back into the world, precipitating another Greater Darkness. The Gods have the Freedom to do so, but it's fairly academic, as it would be universal and deistic suicide. This is the reason why the Red Goddess presents such a threat to the Lightbringers... Her side-stepping of the Compromise and flirtations with Chaos threaten the very safety of the world, which was barely saved from Chaos.
> It is also true that they are not 'constructs' - they are
> personifications of universal truths, not mere manifestations of their
> worshippers beliefs.
In this, I agree wholeheartedly! Bravo!
> > As stated
> >in GoG, CoP, and other sources, Moon seeks to engulf and conquer (or
> >Heal, if you're Lunar) the entire Cosmos, absorbing the pliant Earth and
> >Solar Deities, first, then setting herself against Storm.
>
> Its more they seek to incorporate more deities into the Lunar Way,
> rather than actually engulf them into the Moon. Other religions are fitted
> into Lunar cosmology, and politically accomodated. Its not usually
> conquering.
If you don't call the way Pagan Deities across Europe were absorbed into Christianity as Saints, along with their holidays. The process of Lunar 'healing' is essentially the same.
> And think about it, even in your own terms - do you think the Lunar
> conquest of Storm would happen all at once? Of course not, so there are
> areas where Storm is hostile to Moon and areas where it is not. Just don't
> fall into the trap of thinking that Storm hostile to Moon is synonymous
> with 'Orlanth', and Moon friendly to Storm is always one of those wimpy
> Pelorian Air goddesses.
This is a point of view that I know accept due to debates and POVs that Ive seen debated here on the Digest. I still think that the 'Masks of the Primal Powers' and 'Godtime was Alien and Platonic' models serves well for this kind of thing! :)
>
> >Remember, in all the cases I know of, Moon is the *aggressor* against
> >Storm.
>
> Some people will believe anything!
> Remember, the hostile act the Red Goddess committed that caused the
> Castle Blue altercation, according to the Orlanthi, was existence. Only the
> most fanatic Orlanthi would think that was 'aggression'. Read the GRoY and
> Entekosiad and you will find numerous cases of Storm aggression to Moon.
These are sources I have not read, and will attempt to avail myself of, as soon as possible. Please pardon my CoP based ignorance ;) Also, its been stated several times here on the Digest that GRoY and Entekosiad are oftiesm thinly veiled Luanr propaganda, written by humans. Yes, I believe Gods can lie, when it suits their purposes.
A possible campaign idea that I've had rattling around my head is that the campaign has at least 2 PCs... One lunar, the other Lighbringer. The two Gods wish peace, but are forbidden to directly order their worshippers due to arcane aspects of the Compromise. Thus, these two or more potentially hostile PC's must quest to make peace in the world, and HeroQuest to demonstrate to their people that their Gods no longer wish war. Now, wouldn't that be a hoot!
> > Orlanth and his ilk are the one group of deities who do
> >not fall easily to the splendor and glamour of the Lunar Way.
>
> Who is the other great enemy of the Lunars? The nomads. Who do they
> worship? Kargzant, who can pretty much be considered a variant of Yelm in
> game terms (certainly in modern times). Yet Yelm is the great ruling god of
> the Dara Happan Empire, and Kargzant its greatest enemy. Think about that,
> and whether your arguments about Moon always opposing Storm hold up when
> the ruler god of most of the Lunar Empire and its greatest enemy god are
> not only both gods of Sky, but are functionally the same (the God Learners
> certainly believed the nomads worshipped Yelm).
Again, Masks. Due to the Compromise, the Primal Sky/Sun that we know as Yelm can not directly order his worshippers to stop fighting, or perhaps must give magic to those who worship correctly in the right forms for that mask, regardless of how they treat other worshippers of the same God (witness how the church pleaded with nominally Christian nations who worshipped the same God, to stop fighting!) In Sartar, before the coming of King Sartar the wars and raids between Orlanthi tribes showed the same thing. It also shows that Worshippers can perhaps defy their Gods will but still recieve magic, as long as the terms of the divine 'contract' as laid out in cult doctrine is fufilled. Also, to the Pelorian people the Storm Gods simply *aren't a problem*, as hordes of mad Uroxi and Orlanthi aren't rampaging up north (although that may well change, depending on how Greg develops the literature situation after KoS, with Argrath leading his army up into Tarsh.) The Pent Nomads are a problem because they're closer and a more immediate threat. Cosmologically, though, the battle is between Moon and Storm.
> There is a question about whether I Fought We Won was really one
> single event, or the same mythic pattern repeated all over the world. I
> don't think that question can be answered, and to attempt to do so would be
> leaping into mysticism. But I don't think it really historically occurred
> in the same way that it is talked about in Cults of Terror.
Absolutely, I agree. I'm fairly certain that it did take place as described in local areas as told in myth... ie - The chaos war in Prax and Storm Bull's battle with Wakboth, the Death of Genert, etc. It's in the Underworld where things get murky and contradictory.
>
> Cheers
>
> David
>
Thanks, David! :)
>
> From: Nick Brooke <Nick_Brooke_at_compuserve.com>
> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 03:44:29 -0400
> Subject: Re: Chris's poll
> BTW, Chris postulates that a Glorantha where the gods struggle for
> supremacy through their worshippers is incompatible with a Glorantha where
> the Lunars could be correct. I can't understand this. Consider this
> (Orlanthi/Monomyth POV):
>
> 1) The Red Goddess has been accepted into the Great Compromise;
> 2) Orlanth wants to overthrow the Red Goddess and destroy the Moon;
> 3) By doing this, Orlanth is trying to break the Great Compromise;
> 4) Breaking the Great Compromise would let Chaos into the world;
> 5) Haven't we been here before, with Orlanth vs. Yelm and all that?
I don't accept Orlanth trying to (2) Break the Comproise [He helped negotatiate and forge it] or (3) Let Chaos into the world [Orlanth admitted his wrong in murdering Yelm, quested to Hell and saved Yelm, all to save the world from Chaos and correct his own mistakes.] IMO, If Orlanth could, he'd simply take the Sword Death to that Silver-haired, red-skinned hussy and let her have it, but that would blow the compromise. The Red Goddess has had immense success because she's been skilled at defeating Orlanth WITHIN THE STRICTURES OF THE COMPROMISE. Thus, the only way for Orlanth to strike back and defend himself is through exceptional worshippers like Argrath, who heroquest to rediscover old, lost aspects of his powers.
As for a world where the Gods strive through their worshippers and the Lunars are correct, that IMO IS possible! The Red Goddess means to heal the world of it's strife and discontent. But first, Orlanth must be healed, and shown the splendour of the Lunar Way!
> Saying that the Orlanthi POV is by definition "correct" and that the Lunars
> are necessarily wrong (and, I suppose, demonstrably wrong within Glorantha,
> else what's the point of saying it?) looks like decreasing the role-playing
> complexity of the gaming world of Glorantha, giving players less to worry
> about. Why should the answers to moral questions be so simple?
In this, I agree. Is the Red Goddess' plan to heal and unite the world the thing it needs to be saved? Or is Orlanth and his people right in that the Red Goddess if just another Gbaji, who forces people into her way whether they wish to partake of it or not and destroys or enslaves their gods and myths? is Orlanth truly some reckless Barbarian God who is a threat to the cosmic order who nearly destroyed the world by his slaying of the True Emperor, of the King of the Cosmos who freed the world from the jackboot of an oppressive, uncaring ruler, who rules from justice and consent of his people, as opposed to some arcane set of laws which serve those who govern, as opposed to the governed? Who can say?
> You may not recall that Greg wrote WB&RM (the first Gloranthan gaming
> excursion) from a morally-neutral standpoint, bringing out the best and
> worst features of Sartar and the Empire: yes, the Lunar battalia includes
> the Crimson Bat, but the Sartarites have Werewolves and Headhunters (and
> usually Zombies, too) on their side; articles in early WFs were
> scrupulously even-handed, and the Arduin Grimoire role-playing stats for
> heroes showed a "Neutral" Argrath opposing a "Cyclical" Red Emperor: no
> easy answers there, and deliberately so.
That's a good way to do it. Although, in AD&D terms, I'd classify the
Lunar vs
Sartarite conflict as one of Lawful Neutral (Lunar Empire) vs Chaotic
Good
(Sartarite) cultures. Generally, the Sartarite protections of
individual rights and the moral injunction that the rulers must serve
the governed, as well as the general compassion and regard for
non-combatants, the poor, etc, I've seen in examples of Orlanthi culture
qualifies them as 'good' in AD&D terms. As opposed to the Lunars, who
feed war criminals and convicts to the Bat, practice roman style
slavery, and have not many legal protections for individuals (although I
may be wrong - Lunarphiles, help me out) Strikes me as them being more
concern for law and society as a whole as opposed to being kind or
compassionate, although I do notice that Lunar Society has a strong
compassionate streak through it.
> Speaking personally, I make a case for the Lunars whenever I can: because
it's good fun, it provokes the predominantly pro-Orlanthi/Sartarite
gaming
> community, it's enjoyable to play scenarios as agents of the Evil Empire,=
> and (like it or not) there are thousands upon thousands of good and pious=
> followers of the Lunar Way from all walks of life who deserve a more
> inspiring worldview than: "We're all dupes of Chaos who deserve death".
Again, I agree. Provoke the Pro-Orlanth community? Here on the Digest,
I suspect
that the majority lies with the Lunars!
>
> What I'm trying to avoid is "knee-jerk" roleplaying:
>
> + All Lunars are Evil, and they all know it, and act that way too!
> + Murdering Lunars (and suspected Lunars) is always morally right!
> + After all, even the Lunars know that their "religion" is false!
> + Let's kill the Teelo Norri nuns: they're foul Chaos-spawned dupes!
ROTFLAMO!
<Snipped incredibly good points in defense of Lunars as 3 dimensional
beings, not
Star Wars style bad guys.>
I agree 100%. Not much more to say, except that the Lunar Empire is
also intriguing because it's everything that Orlanthi culture is not -
sensual, decadent, dictatorial,
mystical, glamorous, disciplined, mysterious. IMO, The Lunars can be
just as heroic, compassionate and just as any Orlanthi! That the Empire
as a whole emphasised that aspect of the Lunar Way!
> Nick
>
> PS: heard from Sandy at Games Day '86: one of the doubleplusgood things
> about the "What the Priests Say" pages in "Gods of Glorantha" was that ma=
> ny
> newcomers to the world of Glorantha, on reading all the pantheons'
> accounts, ended up convinced that the Orlanthi Barbarians were "the bad
> guys" of the world. Well, I mean: just look at their track record, eh?
Oh, come on, they're not that bad, they just like to tumble! :)
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