> Somebody asked this one at the Lore Auction at GC IV. Sandy
>Peteresen answered by saying that you cannot HeroQuest to change the past
>wholesale, but that you can make it different for yourself. [...]
> The Godlearners did make wholesale changes in history/reality.
>After they had imposed their changes (at least some of them), it was
>as if the new way was the way it had always been. But this was not
>HeroQuesting as we know it, it was something
else.
The main God Learner trick IMO was to use whole populations to believe the new reality. Instead of people voluntarily going to the shrine of the hero and learn the new secret (which eventually became the established truth by a pattern of osmosis), the God Learners used their political and military power to *coerce* their subject people to follow the New Truths and abjure the Old Ways. Since this was much quicker than the old method and more dramatic, it seemed too many that they could alter history.
Stephen Lucek:
>There are myths that bind together the whole of Gloranthan reality.
>If not then the the God Learner Mono-myth would not be possible.
I disagree. Myths are only explanations and labels of the world and not the world itself. The fact that I call this glowing orb in the sky the 'Sun' does not mean that the label is intrinsic to the Sun. Before things were named, the Sun existed. Likewise IMO a similar situation exists within glorantha with the Gods.
Moreover one can believe in gods without myths - the cult of Aten the Sun Disc which was worshipped by the Pharoah Akhenaton is an extreme example of this. In that cult's lore, there is no myth of how he made the world, how he defeated the night - he simply is. It's been remarked that in christian terms, this would be tantamount to worshipping the Cross with no bible, no theology of the trinity etc. The lore of the cult is primarily descriptive, saying what a fantastic bloke that Solar Disc is. You can read some of the poems in Sun Country.
However people use myths because they work. The myths help them to understand the Gods. And the reason why the Monomyth was possible was that the God Learners could draw on a tremendous range of human myth and lore to deepen their understanding of the gods. It was possible because the sources that the God Learners used were humanoid in origin.
Erich Schmidt:
>My prime prejudice is that in a fantasy game the gods exist.
Glorantha is not just a pastiche of western fantasy literature. It is a reflection of the beliefs of real world mythology. There is more to Glorantha than the Gods exist. There is also the animism of the Hsunchen, the mysticism of the Kralori and the monotheism of the west. By saying that the Gods exist in and only in the classic God Learner sense robs glorantha of much of its richness.
>They have personality and goals.
Sure the gods have personalities but goals? What is Orlanth's goal? How is it apparent in the history of the Orlanthi? This God has let his people support the God Project, tear themselves in kinstrife in the aftermath, support the Dragons, let them be eaten by the Dragons or slain by the True Golden Horde and now let them be viciously conquered by the Lunars. And we all now Orlanth's big plan for salvation: a hero resurects the magics of the EWF and also lunarizes his kin. Under these circumstances, one is tempted to divine to Orlanth and ask Why?
And what of the Invisible God? Surely since he's omnipotent and made the World, he can destroy the other gods? What's his great goal in life? Or is he trying to overcome Earthmaker or the Cosmic Dragon who also have created Glorantha?
>In the scheme of Glorantha, The deities are firmly
>separated from the "real world" but their influence is undeniable. Also,
>they no longer have free will and can only act according to patterns set
>down in pre-history when they did have free will.
This is the Orlanthi view of the Cosmos. Why should the Pelorians believe in this considering that their gods spontaneously manifest among them and that changes in these manifestations have been recorded over time? Why should the Kralori believe in this considering that all gods are demonstrably corrupt perceptions of the remants of the Cosmic Dragon and that the Truth is Hidden?
>Secondarily, religions are initiated at first by a direct interaction
>between a deity and a mortal. The mortal understands as best he can the
>deity's message and then proceeds to do Great Works in It's Name.
>Even though the deity's message will become distorted over time, it still
>has originated from a being with an agenda. This agenda may be unfathomable,
>but it still exists.
So what if some-one divines 'What is your goal?'.
>If the priests to Orlanth in Saird and Holay are not
>screaming awake every Windsday in Storm season and still have the magic that
>comes from him then having the Red Empire rule those provinces does not
>disturb his goals.
I strongly dislike this idea of the Gods playing the Great Game with mortal lives. What if a priest decides to test it by divination. Does the god say 'Yes, you are not living according to my strictures but I don't give a shit because you are not important' or lie? If he is willing to tolerate somebody not living in accordance with his wishes then why does he bother having cult strictures at all? Are those who thought they followed his cult strictures but really didn't going to be denied a place in his afterlife when they die?
Hasni Mubarak:
>One question though, suppose a group of heroes hops onto the Godplane,
>and finds Orlanth, and says "hi". Is this even a possible situation?
Yes. A Sartarite can go and see Orlanth and he looks exactly like what the Godi said Orlanth looks like right down to the clothing and the arm rings. Even in the rare cases when Orlanth is beheld by many in the material world, he still looks the same. The secret is that when somebody else goes to see Orlanth, they see something slightly _different_. A Pentan would behold him as a horse-riding khan who calls himself the West King Wind and notice no arm rings.
If Orlanth manifests in the material world at the behest of his Sartarite Worshippers and is noticed by a Pentan, then the Pentan sees the Sartarite conception of the Storm God looks like. He might not be convinced that he is seeing the true form of the West King Wind and so may rationalise it by a) believe it to be another storm god but not *the* storm god, b) believing the Sartarites to be coprolithic morons, or c)
The point is that it is the culture which determines how the God is viewed. If one didn't have a cultural background (implausible as it is) then one wouldn't see the Storm God at all on the other side.
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