???? Of course Orlanthi has changed over time, how =
could he not have? For a start, he has not been worshipped =
for all time. Orlanthi is a combination of faiths that sprung =
from Kolating roots - the actual Orlanth was probably a =
famous tribal leader who used his Kolating powers to free =
his people from the rule of som oppressers - hence the =
Evil Emperor myth. After that he was worshipped through =
ancestor or standard ceremonial worship by the Kolating =
Proto-priests and became a deity - over time the god Orlanth =
was associated with more and more powers and greater =
and greater deeds. Each time a great figure or power in =
history came and changed the god - Orlanth was changed =
by Lokamayadon, then Harmast, then the EWF, then =
Alakoring, then Argrath and a whole host of lesser names =
over time. But according to your argument the REAL Orlanth =
was just sitting there unchanged, the same fellow from =
before history as now, presumably having a good chuckle???
>(The mention of Arkat turning Humath to Humakt.)
>That's neat. Where did you read this?
On the digest and in personal posts - its the idea and work =
of several people, including Stephen Martin, Peter Metcalfe, =
Joerg Baumgartner, Jeff Richard and others - much as the =
work on Zorak Zoran/Zolan Zubar was done in Broken Council =
guidebook. If you think about it logically and in the ocntext of the period and given the Ralian worship of Humath, the =
creation of Humath/Arkat or Humakt is fairly obvious and a MGF idea.
>> (1). The Gods exist and will always exist, they simply =
>> don't exist as individuals. They are an expression of elemental =
>> and worshipful forces which in Glorantha is as real as it gets.
>OK, so the Westerners are right... mostly
Right? No not at all. The Gods do exist but aren't warped sorcers =
or evil spirits except to the westerners. To their specific cultures =
they are what they appear to be. =
>The question is not how to run an character within his own culture. The
>question of "who is right" only becomes relevant when the character
>comes into contact with another culture that has a similar divinity.
Why does this become a question? Plainly anyone from a culture that meets someone of similar culture with a similar deity - frex Grazers =
meeting Yelm when they worship Yu-Kargzant - will simply so an =
ancient myth that explains the rebel sun and how it is inferior to their own - some may convert but this is unlikely given cultural resilience. =
>In your example above on how Arkat subverted Lokamyadon's interdiction,
>I now know that the Humakt religion is wrong, it's missing a fundimental=
>portion as the myth of Humakt severing his storm ties is false. =
No, the myths of Humak are completely right of course and any Humakti =
would hit you for saying otherwise. A Humakt meeting a Humathi would =
pity the poor fellow who doesn't know of the severing of Storm ties with= =
Orlanth and the dishonour that Orlanth bestowed by stealing Death. Then =
the Humathi would say - what are you talking about? Orlanth never stole Death and who is this Yelm guy you keep prattling on about?
However EACH myth is completely provable and correct - after all, if they cast divination or go to the High Holy Day ceremony they can SEE that they are correct - what more proof do you want.
>Does it still "work"? Sure. Humath is a god of truth, death, and =
>storm (I'm assuming at this point as I am not familliar with your =
>reference)so if the rituals only focus on an aspect of a deity then =
>they only get that aspect's power. You can only get Orlanth =
>Thunderous magics from West King Wind.
But the rituals will be very different as they are culturally based.
A Humakti in Ralios would have a near impossible time with the Humathi rituals _Because_ his myths have been so altered by Arkat and others since. By definition they would be a seperate religion with similar powers but NOT the same.
Similarily the rituals for West King Wind are going to be totally =
different to Orlanth and probably resemble Kolating magic than any Sartarite Orlanth worship. To learn the spells you have to learn the rituals and as the rituals are different, you would have =
to start all over again with the new cult.
>Humath didn't change, the religion did. The people's method of
>requesting power changed, and since what they were asking for was
>different what they received was different. But, what they were asking
>for was still within their god's power to grant.
Not so - the preisthoods of the respective cults each have myths and magical methods of accessing their powers - like any deity in Glorantha those powers are based on the extremes of the God so a Humakti cannot have fertility magic _because_ their strength =
is all focussed in death magic - one precludes the other except in certain special cases. You are saying that the God has all the =
powers but the worshippers don't know them - I am saying that the worshippers can _find_ more powers by heroquesting and =
defining the myths - THAT is what religion in Glorantha is all =
about!
>So, what's the point? What's the difference? Orlanth Thunderous rites
>work at West King Wind shrines because they're really *the same god*.
>Elmali rites *don't* work at Yelmalion shrines because their different.
>And someday a Humakti is going to come across an old book and realize
>that he has been missing out.
<Sigh> No because a Humakti going to Ralios could no become a Humathi without giving up the rituals that make him a Humakti in the first place An Orlanth THunderous priest in Pent woud have not a clue how to get =
magic from the strange travelling shrine the nomads use nor would he have a clue as to their rituals - a Shrine only gives magic is approached=
in the correct ritual way. Its not a fountain like power source, more of=
a
catalyst for the right rituals and the power of the worshippers.
Mystic Musk Ox comments (and why not with a name like that):
>I can't believe that given two cultures, say both Sun worshippers who co=
me
>into contact, would blithely just say "Oh well, those guys over there
worship
>a different Sun to me", and then leave it at that, knowing full well tha=
t
>they are right, even though the other guys spells, priests, DI's etc, al=
l
>still seem to work. How do those two cultures explain this? =
This is very easy to explain - two sun worshipping cultures who meet will realise that they each worship the false sun - who left in defeat ma= ny
years ago - as Kargzant left in defeat according to GRoY, the nomads think that the Yelmic Sun is that of slaves and ground-grubbers. They don't "know" that the other culture is right - quite the contrary - they "know" the other culture is WRONG. =
No culture would interact with another without mythically defining that =
interaction and given the relative simplicitiy of heroquesting for that =
information the myth will be there in no time to prove that the false sun= =
is a false sun and _why_its a false sun. Sure they can get magic but =
its _false_ magic and why? _BECAUSE_ THEY ARE FALSE!!!! =
Once the priests explain this, all concerned will nod nowingly and tell their children the myth and that will be that, end of problem.
Martin Laurie
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #507
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