David Cake in response:
> Just one of the several good reasons why a hard core subjectivist
>position that actually doubts the gods independent existence doesn't really
>hold up, not that I think anyone really advocates it.
> But gods are not just big spirits - the connection to the primal
>power is something over and above its normal spiritual existence. Beings
>like Thunder Bird stand somewhere near heroes, except they were formerly
>spirits rather than formerly being normal mortals. Like heroes, they have
>some divine power, and some restrictions on their will. But like heroes,
>they are not so distant yet that they can't manifest and interact directly.
>Think of Thunder Bird as partway to godhood, but not there yet.
Let me throw my hat in the ring as a hard core subjectivist then. In my (current!) view gods are a natural by-product of the creative juices of a magically capable people. The birth of a god requires a spark of life similar to that which fires up any sapient creature. However, without worshippers, a god has nothing to tie it to the real world and give it form. Similarly, I believe that spirits which are not regularly contacted and reminded who they are will eventually forget and fade away. Of course, some may take a long time to do this, especially if they were particularly driven when alive. Similarly, a god will take quite some time to fade away, even without any worshippers.
What makes this set up interesting is the feedback. Once you've got a god, it's going to be playing it's part in reminding it's worshippers that it exists. I imagine in Glorantha many gods being born as simple tribal cultures formed. By the time history begins, i.e. the dawn for Dragon Pass peoples, it has become almost impossible for new gods to be formed, as the existing ones do quite well in explaining the world as seen through their worshippers eyes. And the gods themselves reinforce this. The gods are however subject to change, as the culture which supports them develops and becomes more complex. On the other hand, the spirits of dead heros can provide a ready made focus for new worship.
A question at this point. Do or did gods actually fight and die? I tend to think that the death of a god is how one culture explains their defeat at the hands of another. Again, once a culture has started to believe this, it's going to be practically impossible for them to produce a replacement. Much more likely is the adoption of a foreign god, or the belief that their god can/will be reborn.
In the west they no longer, or possibly never did, need gods in the way they do in central Genertela. I think their belief in a single god means there has to be such an entity, but as it doesn't by definition interact directly with anyone, this can't be verified.
The eastern (mystic?) viewpoint however, remains a mystery to me. Are we due an eastern special of TotRM at some stage?
Cheers
Owen
Owen Jones
Centre for Maths and its Applications, School of Math. Sciences
Australian National University, ACT 0200
Ph +61 6 249 2897 (office) 249 4552 (direct) Fax +61 6 249 4675
Web page http://wwwmaths.anu.edu.au/~oj/
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