Another Martin

From: Martin Laurie <MLaurie_at_compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:45:20 -0400


Martin Dick comments:
>On the second, the reason i want some objectivity in the =

>world is I guess due to the canonical campaign that is played =

>in Glorantha. Which I see as a bunch of adventurers from =

>many different backgrounds in the city of Pavis. Here we =

>straight away run into at least 5 common different worldviews:
>1) Traditional Sartarite Orlanthi
>2) Praxian Nomad
>3) Lunar Empire
>4) Yelmalian
>5) Pavisite city dwellers
>This doesn't count the troll, elves and chaos groups in the city who
>all have different world views.
>I believe that we need to come up with some gamable (and
>hence to some extent objective) method of resolving the differences
>and clashes between myths. =

Hmmmm, interesting point but it assumes that: (a). Cultures that clash WANT to resolve their differences. (b). That individuals in the culture would feel the need to be so reasonable and facilitating when in fact people usually cling to their cultural differences like madmen, especially given the nature and reality of magic in Glorantha. =

>Now this could be simply a war of propaganda, the culture =

>with the most worshippers wins the day, but to me that doesn't =

>hold a great deal of fun or resonance. In a purely subjective =

>campaign perhaps it's the depth and strength of your beliefs =

>rather than the number of worshippers which determines who =

>wins.

Wins, wins? Wins what? Worshipping is not a matter of winning. Your god may get pounded but its still your god! As far as the =

Orlanthi go, the Lunars pounded their god and therefore "won". Remember that they don't have our knowledge of the future - as far as they are concerned, the Lunars have kicked Orlanthi butt for centuries but they don't care to cease worshipping Orlanth do they?

Numbers of worshippers are simply one weapon in heroquesting but there are many others not dependant on numbers, more on skill in walking the paths, deep mythic knowledge and special =

tricks to get around enemies.

I think what you are possibly saying is that having a party of PCs from many cultures causes problems because of their mythic =

divergence? So to create a game - playable effect there must be some form of objective truth so one or the other player knows he's right or wrong and when to back down or not?

I don't think that a bunch of Pavisites and Orlanthi could actually work together without some external stimulus though the Pavisites are city cultists and are by definition more mythically cosmopolitan =

than the Orlanthi from Sartar, having lived with many different faiths for so long. The Nomads would be very intolerant of other myths and would consider them weak - won't stop them working with the foolish Orlanthi occasionally though if they must. Much as people of different religions work together in the RW, without changing their beliefs, it can be done in Glorantha, it merely leads to strain and interesting =

character interaction - surely thats a positive thing rather than the negative thing you seem to be implying?

>And here I come to Nick's point that it is action that determines the =

>winners and i agree with him, but in Glorantha you can't separate =

>action from myth, in fact Heroquesting is Action via Myth, so just as =

>we need rules for combat and war, we need a system to handle war
>between myths.

I agree that this is the case but winning a mythic "war" is not about who is right in the objectivist sense, ie who obeys the "true" myths (though how anyone can say a myth can be "true" is beyond me - they =

should read a dictionary). Its about who comes up with the coolest =

weapons in the cleverest way so I see it as a form of tactical combat which can be on a national and individual level but the principles are the same. Shengs entire war with the Lunar Empire frex was largely started as he looked around for powers to use against the Kralorelans.

>Of course this is Heroquest, but all the HQ systems i've seen so far, =

seem to be focused too much on individuals and not on the myths  themselves and how myths can be used and/or changed. To my mind,  this will require some objectification of how myths work in Glorantha, i= f =

we want to game there, if we just want to read and talk about it (somethi= ng

I'm very happy to do) >hen there is no need for any objectivity at all. =

Ah, I've no objection to objectively saying "this is how magic, heroquesting =

and magic work in Glorantha" in a rules sense. What I do object to is th= e
attempt to say which culture is right and which culture is wrong. The =

whole point of much objectivist ideology is that one POV in Glorantha =

must be right so they can determine which cultures are the bad guys. =

I think this is plainly boring and lacking in MGF given the interesting =

roleplaying cultural and mythic divergence creates.

>To Martin Laurie
>On a related note, why do you think that objectively real gods (i.e with=

>free will and intelligence) are inherently bad and must end up like the
>Forgotten Realms. If you look at the greek myths, the gods are pretty mu=
ch

>real people writ large and I think that it is a vibrant, fascinating
mythos =

>with much to recommend to it in roleplaying terms. I'm not saying that =

>Glorantha should necessarily have these sort of gods, but to dismiss =

>the concept as puerile and of no value seems to me excessive.

Uurgh! You are missing my point! Of course the Greek Gods had free will and were people writ large! So are the Orlanthi Gods and so are =

the gods of most cultures IF YOU ASK THEIR WORSHIPPERS! But if =

you went to China in the classic hellenistic period and said "hey these guys on Olympus are the gods, worship them" they'd laugh at you or =

kill you for being an ignorant barbarian!

Glorantha DOES have these kind of gods! Theistic worship is entirely =

based on the belief in the reality of their deities. I don't dismiss the= m =

as being purile or of no value. I _do_ dismiss the argument that _one_ =

group or mythic structure of these gods is RIGHT as being purile and =

of no value. What I value is divergence and cultural identity expressed =

through myth, worship and religion. =

I think you are confusing what I know as a RW person objectively looking at the way a world works with how I see the world through one of my =

characters or an NPC when I'm playing in that world. The distinction =

must be made between the two or else this whole debate is pointless.

Would you agree that its quite possible for me to roleplay a character =

(say a Lunar) that believes 100% that his gods and culture are real =

and completely correct and much better than the culture and gods of =

a character I played last week (say and Orlanthi), while at the same =

time knowing as an objective RW observer how the _gameworld_ actually works? Because thats what I do and its not especially =

difficult.

Martin Laurie


Powered by hypermail