> That does get to be a big problem. We found it almost untenable,
> especially with the Lunar-Orlanthi tension of the 1600's. That's why we
> started the Post-Dragon Kill campaign. We could play a band of highly
> varied Gloranthans with different worldviews who had to learn to get
> along. It was great fun.
And one of the great strengths of Glorantha and Runequest, in my opinion.
>
> We still ignored the objective truth, however. Basically, everyone
> recognized the basic themes each other's behaviors and beliefs, they
> just put it into thier own terms.
>
> Thus, the Alkothi peasant soldier looked at an Orlanthi thane and
> thought "A strongman - he controls the food and the women. I'll follow
> him loyally and get on the gravy train.", while the thane looked at the
> soldier and thought "huscarl - I'd better reward him to keep him loyal".
> We all recognized a "peaceful cut" ceremony, as well as ceremonies
> for spring planting, first harvest, and weddings. Everyone added a bit
> of their own customs to the rituals, and it worked pretty well. We
> couldn't understand each other enough to argue whether Elmal could push
> Yelmalio off the head of a pin...
>
> Pam
The problem is that if you want to play in 1600s Dragon Pass/Prax, you are really forced to some extent to nail your colours to the cross (which is a good thing I believe and leads to MGF). So in the situation you describe above, it becomes a matter of individuals putting aside their differences and collaborating for their own good and probably becoming friends.
Pavis in the 1600s however is a place where it is very difficult to do this in my opinion and most characters of any persuasion have to come out on either the Lunars side or against the Lunars, whether you want to or not. When you do come out on one side or the other (or I guess playing both sides against the other for the clever or suicidal), the myths which are going to come into play are not peaceful, easily accommodated ones such as those you mention above, but instead myths of conflict and war.
As an example, our group recently ended up on a minor HQ where we came up against some Lunars who were trying to stop us. In the end, the conflict came down to a combat. Now while this adventure was great fun and I enjoyed it a lot I don't really see a straight RQ combat as being a completely adequate mechanism for this sort of thing all the time.
The sorts of things that people are talking about with group support and traits are really neat and I hope will lead to some of the game mechanics that campaigns set in the above area really need. But the very fact of having game mechanics sets an objective framework for the interaction of myths. Not the extreme objectivist view that there is one true myth, but that certain myths are stronger/more believed/have greater substance on the Hero Plane and that this has impact on the struggles in the normal world of Glorantha.
> ------------------------------
>
> From: Martin Laurie <MLaurie_at_compuserve.com>
> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:45:20 -0400
> Subject: Another Martin
>
> Hmmmm, interesting point but it assumes that:
> (a). Cultures that clash WANT to resolve their differences.
> (b). That individuals in the culture would feel the need to be
> so reasonable and facilitating when in fact people usually
> cling to their cultural differences like madmen, especially
> given the nature and reality of magic in Glorantha. =
>
a) The assumption that cultures want to resolve their differences is pretty
well founded in my opinion. Of course such resolution may be along the
lines of wiping out the entire culture (Zzabur and Blue Vadeli) or
slaying many and enslaving the rest (Sheng and the Lunars). Resolution
does not mean a happy ending.
b) In a society like Pavis, it is necessary that the situation is resolved by the individuals. Individuals may cling like madmen to their beliefs, but if you are a fanatic orlanthi living in Pavis, you either die heroically/stupidly trying to assassinate Sor-Eel, become a secret revolutionary and in everyday life accept the Lunars or leave Pavis or stop being a fanatic Orlanthi and become a more reasonable or cowardly Orlanthi
> Wins, wins? Wins what? Worshipping is not a matter of winning.
> Your god may get pounded but its still your god! As far as the =
>
> Orlanthi go, the Lunars pounded their god and therefore "won".
> Remember that they don't have our knowledge of the future - as
> far as they are concerned, the Lunars have kicked Orlanthi butt
> for centuries but they don't care to cease worshipping Orlanth do
> they?
>
Wins in the sense, that the Lunars have won the war, wins in the sense
of the Lunars won the battle of Moonbroth, win in the sense that the Lunars
have in Saird assimilated Orlanth worship into their religion.
Moonbroth is a classic case where superior Lunar manipulation of myths was crucial when they "proved" that Oakfed was the son of Lodril and turned Oakfed's powers on the Praxians. How did they do that? And on a lower level, how can we simulate such events in our campaigns?
> Numbers of worshippers are simply one weapon in heroquesting
> but there are many others not dependant on numbers, more on
> skill in walking the paths, deep mythic knowledge and special =
>
> tricks to get around enemies.
>
> I think what you are possibly saying is that having a party of PCs
> from many cultures causes problems because of their mythic =
>
> divergence? So to create a game - playable effect there must be
> some form of objective truth so one or the other player knows he's
> right or wrong and when to back down or not?
>
No, what I'm saying is there must be some form of objective framework to resolve the mythical conflicts which seem to be part and parcel of the Glorantha that Greg has presented. The whole clash of myths concept seems to me to be an integral part of Glorantha and if we wish to game these activities, we need that objective framework. Now that framework may actually be such that a particular myth is always and in every situation the most powerful but I think a framework which set that up would be really negative. A framework which allowed the GM to have roughly some idea how two competing myths matched up against each other in a particular set of circumstances would be very useful as a game tool, just as the Magic rules telling us how a disruption works against a Counter Magic spell is also a very useful tool for a GM.
> I don't think that a bunch of Pavisites and Orlanthi could actually work
> together without some external stimulus though the Pavisites
> are city cultists and are by definition more mythically cosmopolitan =
>
> than the Orlanthi from Sartar, having lived with many different faiths
> for so long. The Nomads would be very intolerant of other myths and
> would consider them weak - won't stop them working with the foolish
> Orlanthi occasionally though if they must. Much as people of different
> religions work together in the RW, without changing their beliefs, it
> can be done in Glorantha, it merely leads to strain and interesting =
>
> character interaction - surely thats a positive thing rather than the
> negative thing you seem to be implying?
External stimulus - Lunar Invasion and conquest of their lands
If I implied that I think it's a negative thing, I didn't mean to. Obviously such strains and tension and conflicting goals are important factors in MGF. One of the best sessions of our current campaign was based around just such things:
Dramatis Personae:
Taryn - Issaries Initiate and Pavic born Orlanthi Wend and Gwyden - Sartarite born Orlanthi and Initiates of Orlanth Brin - Humakti initiate, hired as guard by Taryn Roderick - Western slave
In the campaign, the Crown of Sartar had just been stolen from the Pavis temple of Issaries (though we didn't know what was stolen at the time) by a Lunar Agent. We were sent to get it back and after some effort and a stroke of luck managed to get it back off the caravan. Heading back to Pavis, the tensions between Gwyden and Wend who had discovered what the item was and Taryn were loads of fun. Taryn wanted to take the Crown straight back to the Temple, while the other two wanted to take it to Krogar Wolfhelm and co. We nearly ended up fighting each other before the walls of Pavis with Brin backing Taryn as the fellow who hired him and Roderick trying desperately to keep a fight from breaking out.
But this was all resolved with talk and argument and based on the relationships the characters had built up over the previous sessions and if worst had come to worst, we could have resolved it with combat.
But if it was mythical conflict between us and some Lunars, we couldn't have used those techniques in the same way.
Interseting comments clipped out:
>> Ah, I've no objection to objectively saying "this is how magic,
> heroquesting =
>
> and magic work in Glorantha" in a rules sense. What I do object to is th=
> e
> attempt to say which culture is right and which culture is wrong. The =
>
> whole point of much objectivist ideology is that one POV in Glorantha =
>
> must be right so they can determine which cultures are the bad guys. =
>
> I think this is plainly boring and lacking in MGF given the interesting =
>
> roleplaying cultural and mythic divergence creates.
>
I think this is as much a straw man as the extreme subjectivist viewpoint. My reading of the objectivist camp and i could be wrong, is that in campaigns where there is a clash of cultures you really need some way of determining the results (and possibly even the victor) of that clash. Given that the clash of cultures which is dominant in Gloranthan roleplaying is the Sartarite Orlanthi vs The Lunars and that objectively, Sartar seems to have no real chance when you look at economics, miltiary strength and magical sophistication in the early 1600s, we can explain the victory of Argrath by saying that the myths of the orlanthi Sartarites in some way are "better" than the Lunar's myths and this allows them to defeat the Lunars.
One explanation of this is that Orlanthi myths are closer to the reality of Glorantha than those of the Lunars. This is a reasonable and valid explanation of the events and given the RQ2 material also well-supported. Of course this doesn't mean that it's right or that it leads to MGF for everyone, but the current situation is that we have abandoned this explanation without providing an alternative mechanism in our games to explain this or to game out such situations. This disturbs a lot of people including myself.
But we do seem to be reaching the same conclusion from via different routes :-).
> Glorantha DOES have these kind of gods! Theistic worship is entirely =
> based on the belief in the reality of their deities. I don't dismiss them
> as being purile or of no value. I _do_ dismiss the argument that _one_ =
> group or mythic structure of these gods is RIGHT as being purile and =
> of no value. What I value is divergence and cultural identity expressed =
> through myth, worship and religion.
Me too!
> I think you are confusing what I know as a RW person objectively looking
> at the way a world works with how I see the world through one of my =
> characters or an NPC when I'm playing in that world. The distinction =
> must be made between the two or else this whole debate is pointless.
> Would you agree that its quite possible for me to roleplay a character =
> (say a Lunar) that believes 100% that his gods and culture are real =
> and completely correct and much better than the culture and gods of =
> a character I played last week (say and Orlanthi), while at the same =
> time knowing as an objective RW observer how the _gameworld_
> actually works? Because thats what I do and its not especially =
> difficult.
Yes, I agree as a player it's not difficult at all, the difficulty arises when you are a GM and you have both characters interacting and you as the GM needs to resolve a mythic conflict. The key is that a GM needs to be able to act as RW person objectively looking at how the world works, a player doesn't to any great extent. But I did misunderstand to a large extent the thrust of your argument and we are in many respects in agreement I think.
Another Martin
GloranthaCon DownUnder
All Hail Bloody Jeff
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