Well, it all seems to boil down to how do we want to cut the HQ cake, and how much we want to simplify the mechanics. It certainly seems to me that WILL is being overloaded here - essentially it is reducing the mechanics to a single dimension, whereas to my mind the obvious model is two-dimensional. [Basically, the single-dimension model conflates something to do with free will (ability to make choices) and power (effect of your choices on others).]
>[A Hero might never run out of WILL, just by generating more in his mundane life]
By making it sufficiently slow to (re)generate WILL, this becomes a non-problem; even if said Hero is immortal, he can only alter the HP at a low rate.
> But I think that some of the things Will is used for (in our system
> and theirs), are such that they _ought_ to be "improvable" by HQ.
I agree - WILL could be split into two parts, the "free will" part and the "influence" part. I will call these FWILL and INFLUENCE. Perhaps these would form almost (not quite) analagous roles to physical STR and DEX/CON?
I would envisage FWILL as not varying so much from (mundane) person to person - perhaps basically a 3d6 range (?) even for a normal adult, and increasing naturally by say +1/decade thereafter. Skill %ages, rune spells et al would have no effect on FWILL - indeed one could make a case for some things to reduce FWILL (-1 per initiation, -1 per cult geas, -1 per skill mastery?, -1 per new rune spell?).
OTOH, INFLUENCE would be say POW + skills mastered + initiations + gifts + rune spells. I see no need for INFLUENCE to go down (at least, not normally).
Then to affect the HP one might spend FWILL, but the magnitude of the change would depend on the INFLUENCE. Maybe one has to spend double FWILL to make the change permanent. Maybe if one is deficient in INFLUENCE one can spend extra FWILL to compensate - it might be the product of (FWILL expended)*INFLUENCE that counts.
Perhaps an example of what I mean: say there is a HQ for Humakt's magic sword of sharpness; this might have a basic cost of 1 FWILL. The possible outcomes for a successful HQ might be: (a) getting +1 damage for the Hero personally with the sword they
have with them on the HQ (perhaps this is the minimal successful
result).
teaches the appropriate ritual to)
(d) getting +1 damage for all Humakt cultists in a particular village (e) getting +1 damage for all Humakt cultists (f) getting +1 damage for all swords always. (b) might require an INFLUENCE of 20+ (c) and (d) might require an INFLUENCE of 40+(e) might require an INFLUENCE of 80+
Hmm, looking over the above it does not seem to have come out quite right - obviously not simple enough for prime time yet, sigh.
Anyway, if we want to go with a single "WILL" stat, I think it is probably better to junk all of the INFLUENCE characteristics of it; i.e., use WILL to "make the decision" and have the GM hand-wave the effects of support/POW/whatever.
> That is, the use of Will to alter the HP, essentially.
This would then be trading in FWILL for an increase in INFLUENCE.
> > >(I'm ignoring "support" for the moment, and only considering ones
> > >"inherent" power.)
>
> > I don't think you can. See above.
>
> Well, I can, because some HQers _do_. Ultimately, we may have to wave
> our hands and say "Harrek and co.: special cases", but I don't want to
> give up just yet.
Maybe for some unexplained reason, Harrek has an unusually high FWILL. Or possibly he got, through some glitch in the system, an amazingly high INFLUENCE [perhaps finding an economical way of sacrificing virtually all his FWILL all at once for a massive increase in INFLUENCE, at the cost of becoming an insane berserker?]
[Mike Cule was suggesting]
> > If you choose to leave the path and do something new then the price
> > should be higher (MUCH higher) than doing what has been done before.
Perhaps the cost should only be much higher if you want to make it possible, or rather easier, for others to make the choices you wish?
That actually meshes with Harrek vs Argrath: Harrek got an absurd amount of personal power but none of it lasted, whereas for apparently similar (?) amounts of sacrifice, Argrath was far less powerful in person but ended up inflicting his choices on lots of posterity. [The selfish vs the social HQer]
[Someone, (Mike Cule?) suggests a taxonomy: Type I HQ = redoing an old
HQ, Type II HQ = doing a new one, with:]
> > Type I heroquest: You become somewhat more like the person who did the
> > quest first.
>
> > Type II heroquest: You loose all ability other than to be heroically,
> > all out and forever committed to one kind of course of action.
>
> I don't think your distinction is correct, though.
Another way of slicing HQs is
Class P: an HQ for some personal transformation, e.g. initiation
Class S: an HQ for some social(?) effect, e.g. to bring the Sun back
[I mean the Winter Solstice ceremony, not the LBQ!] and each of these can be subdivided into: (i) revelation/subjective - the change is in the mind(s) of the users
e.g. Pi = initiation, Si = harvest-ceremony (ii) transformation/objective - some effect in reality occurs
e.g. Pii = come back with 10-point skin,
[or even more grossly, immortal - the HoG quest per Sandy]
Sii = Syndic's Ban
not to say that subclasses (ii) do not involve (i) as well, but I
do think they are different
I think this is orthogonal to
(1) something old (2) something new [god-learners?] (3) something borrowed [arkat?] (4) something blue [huh?]
[Alex says:]
> As I posted before, I think the most important element is the "depth" of
> the quest; whether it's re-enactment or extrapolative has more to do
> with how good a "map" you have of the "landscape", rather than being
> instrinsically different.
Agreed, though my P/S (i)/(ii) distinctions above do seem to me to hold some sort of importance in Glorantha - though perhaps (i) vs (ii) is simply depth?
And if so, I guess there is a
P(iii) grabbing the Infinity rune
S(iii) mythreality change, e.g. Goddess switch
Cheers,
- --
...........................Malcolm Cohen, NAG Ltd., Oxford, U.K.
(malcolm_at_nag.co.uk)
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