> 3) The Ring then performs its great defining Quests. Will from all
> members is used to bind the result into permanent Reality. A truely
> great Quester such as Argrath may do this more than once.
I'm not too surprised by the implication that a HQers will tend to make only one "real" Quest, because the mechanic you suggest implies that's the optimal stragegy. With only a finite amount of Will to "spend", then if it can be arranged, you might as well "spend" it all at once, and get one really _big_ effect. I exaggerate somewhat, but I think it does carry that tendency within it, whereas I see a more progressive approach to experimental questing as being much more "realistic".
> 4) The Ring forms the core of the Hero cult that keeps the new Reality
> from vanishing. As time goes by the Hero burns the last of his Will
> keeping himself on the Mundane Plane ("Just one more year.... I need
> just one more year...") or expanding the cult.
I don't think either of these require "will" in the sense we've been talking about. What I suspect _does_ force the Hero towards (bodily) apotheosis is that basically, he can't stop Questing. All sorts of events will force him onto the HP, such as his enemies' actions to beat him up there, and any strong interaction with myth he's forced into. And once you're there, it's a bit like going into a supermarket, you can't help but stay there until you've spent 30 quid.
> I'm unclear at this moment whether to classify the
> climax (where the successful Quester can ask the assembled Gods for
> virtually anything) would count as re-enactment though. Arguably not.
At the climax, you're "supposed" to haggle with the Sun about how to Resurrect him. Insofar as it differs from this, it becomes extrapolative. "Yes, Arkat, well, he's _kinda_ like the sun, because, errrrr..." Of course, some of the extrapolations have precedents, and thereby tend to become more re-enactments as a result.
> I would argue that Argrath did first the most complex re-enactment quest
> possible and then a totally new extrapolative quest to free Sheng
> Seleris.
Probably not _totally_ new. After all, someone must have known how to get to the Lunar Hell in question, to _put_ him there. I suspect a certain someone found out how they did it, and followed their "trail"... (Which is still pretty mind-bogglingly experimental, of course.)
[ Why is "will" expended "saving position", rather doing things on the HP ]
> But there are two costs. You pay in blood, toil, tears and sweat (and
> possibly the death of body and soul) to get the change made. And then
> you pay again to fix it and make it real.
Well OK, but I still don't see the point of the distinction. What's the significance of a HQ whose effects aren't real? (The significance in terms of what it means in terms its "function" in the game world, that is.) What is this an "option"?
Surely almost by definition, actions in the HP must have some "real" effect. I can't find any intuition behind the idea of doing something in the HP, and then having its effects simply ignored. Of course, the scale of your interaction with the HP, and the nature of what you did to it, will greatly affect the nature of what that change is, and how significant it is.
> >And the same applies to a small-beer HQer, as much as a Real Hero(TM).
> >The difference is just the the first makes a small change, in this
> >case too small to make a dent in the "received mythology" of anyone
> >much, except possibly himself and some cronies. [...]
> I'm not at all sure what you're saying here. It is true that a Hero of
> the Cult of Rafia Working won't need to sacrifice as much as a Hero of
> Humakt when he tries to make a change in the myth of his god.
He won't? Anyway, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm comparing different Questers of the same cult, following the same myth, but questing at different "depths". I think _anyone_ can affect the HP by their interaction with it, not just "Type II Heroes". That's what I mean by harping on about such things being differences of degree.
One way of thinking of this: if you succeed in an extrapolative quest in a very "shallow" manner, it "creates", or modifies, a myth in such a small way that it's more of a (possibly heretical) rumour. Or a Peculiar Vision, as per Monrogh and his ilk. This is "real" too, it just isn't common mythic currency yet.
> As you note what I'm saying works best for the culture we know most
> about, the Manirian Orlanthi.
I'm not even contemplating other POVs at the moment, personally... What I meant by the "scope" of what you describe was knocking Harrek on the head, the Type I/Type II dichotomy, etc.
> But I do think we need to make a distinction between Re-enactment and
> Experimental as regards costs and effects.
I think we need not a Distinction per se, and a Quantification of the cost, measured against essentially the following criterion: How much is the Mythic world changed thereby?
Mike's Other (in HQ matters), Jeff Richard, on HQ station as Random Event:
> I agreed, but also thought that how the intrepid hero interpreted that
> day's Wandering Monster was Mythically Vital.
Indeed -- but if that WM doesn't show up as planned, then it's not necessarily a disaster for the ritual.
> A game mechanic that can be used for regular Gloranthan life with
> little difficulty, should function for HeroQuesting. Now, I don't think
> we have such a game mechanicism yet (althoug Pendragon Pass comes close)
> - for instance all magic systems currently in use are hopeless screwed up.
I'd have put it in different terms, but I think effectively the same thing -- that what Glorantha needs is not a HQ "capsystem", or "super-RQ", but a single game system, and magic system most of all, that "scales up" well. Not so much in terms of personal power, but in terms of "macrocosmic" effects. Things such as a game representation of a clan's collective magic, and "personality". This is exactly what you need to know when playing the clan "mundanely", and for when someone wants to interact with their belief structures.
Wimpishly,
Alex.
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