>Immortality, or least the revivification of the soul, seem to be
>important themes in Lunar religion.
Not immortality in this world. The ability to escape this world and enter the Healed Cosmos, the Level above Divine or What-have-you.
>Yelmgatha heroquests as Yelm, dies, but manages to resurrect himself.
>In doing so, he seems able to capture essential pre-Darkness Yelmishness
>for himself.
No, Yelm pre-darkness was unable to comprehend the Other according to current philosophy. Thus he was a mere god then. But since his Glorious ReAscent, he is truely Great since he has healed his disunion from the Creator. But Yelm has not been able to show this way very well after the mortals killed his last messenger, Nysalor. Yelmgatha was able to unlock the secrets that had been long lost.
>Did the Red Emperor follow Yelmgatha's example?
No as the Red Emperor was killed at the Battle of Castle Blue which is before he became a Solar Emperor.
>Did Sheng Seleris? I think he must have. Did the Pharaoh? Yes, but
>he misunderstood something or forgot something or wrote it down wrong
>for his followers, because he hasn't made it back yet.
I fail to see the point of this. You are listing as many god-kings as you can find and postulating that they must have shared a common secret. I don't see any connection between the Pharaoh or Sheng Seleris with Yelmgatha and TakenEgi. Nor do I see why there must be some connection other that they are God-Kings. Why have you left out Godunya, Waha, Mani of the Many Lives or Raiba out of this list?
>What path did the Red Goddess follow to become herself?
It's shown in the Entekosiad. She enters the Godplane, is slain by a Demon, meets Arachne Solara, becomes Illuminated, tames the Star Bear, slays the Demon and then Rides on the Bat to Utmost Victory.
>At the end of the Entekosiad,
>the author inserts "Our Red Goddess is not Entekos." But...isn't she?
She didn't 'insert' it, that was the conclusion that she reached through her heroquest. The matter is explained in some detail in the back of the Green Page edition of the Entekosiad.
>I could not help but think that the Red Goddess (or more precisely,
>mortal Rufelza), was a God Learner (in intention, anyway) or constructed
>herself using God Learner techniques. In short, the Goddess is a God
>Learner construct (???).
Why? The God Learners have made only one god up and that was in a far away place (Umathela). What the God Learners routinely did and are villified for is something completely different. They put Gods into procustean beds and chopped heads and legs out of them to make them fit their idea of how the world should be. How would Rufelza find this useful in her quest to discover herself?
Joerg Baumgartner:
>This seems to be the case when Belintar
>disappears, but we have no idea where to Belintar disappears. He might well
>be trapped in a Lunar paradise (for a change - why must it alway be Lunar
>hells?), and that would also be the last place any rescue party would look.
He's been dismembered according to Jar-eel box in the Genertela Book. I think the Lunars would be in a position to know.
>Peter fields Jain's king list as proof that the Telmori weren't totally
>wiped out by Argrath of Pavis. Maroflo and Halifitoor sound awfully similar
>to Tarsh kings of the Illaro dynasty, though, and Jain (the collector of
>that list) is probably the worst historian and scholar whose writings appear
>in KoS (which does say something, given that CHDP is written by a Vendref...).
Jain did not write the list save for the entry for Renedali (where her mother is mentioned) and the spurious dates. The existance of Maroflo and Halifitoor recieves support in the Zin List as recited by Dag. I do not think that Dag borrowed from the Sacred Kings List as he knows not Unstey, lists Joristans (Jarastan?) as succeeding Instad and not Londario and so forth. Thus I'm inclined to believe that the information about Halifitoor and Maraflo is credible.
>The obscure quarrel will have been between Argrath
>and Kallyr, probably over how aggressive Sartarite politics vs. Lunar Tarsh
>should be.
There's nothing to say that Kallyr was the person who Argrath was arguing with. The only thing that we can be certain of is that in connection with a quarrel with Argrath of Pavis, the Telmori swore revenge. As for politics, the gulf is much deeper than mere aggression. Argrath is the one who went to aid the family of prominent Lunar General which is not something that Kallyr would do.
>Or over his marriage to the Feathered Horse Queen, if Densesros of CHDP fame
>did get that date right. (He remains oddly silent about this incident...)
One must remember that the CHDP that we have is a corrupt version which has various bits left out. Take a look at the text of _Argrath's Mothers_ (p172) and compare it to the same text in the CHDP. One notices that the Argrath book contains a lot of details that are not found in the CHDP. Therefore IMO the CHDP that we have is an imperfect copy.
>>Pavis is too far away for Minaryth Blue to know much
>>about it including its ruler IMO or for its ruler to be involved
>>with a quarrel with the Telmori so he is identifying a local
>>person of importance here.
>Minaryth has served under a close companion of Argrath, though, Jarang
>Bladesong, who led a contingent of Sartarite militia to aid Brian. They came
>too late, Harrek had already slain Brian, but Argrath was there too
>(according to the Saga) and fought off Harrek under the Guardian Cranes.
IMO Harrek did not slay King Brian as the latter had been dead since 1625 when he marched through the lands of the Kitori. The Kitori loosed a portion of the Pharaoh they had kept and the resulting spirit destroyed Brian and his army because he had let Harrek destroy the City of Wonders.
>This means he would have known Garrath (who IMO is _the_ Argrath, the one
>grown up among the Starfire ridges as stated in DP boardgame, (foster-) son
>of a stickpicker).
Minaryth would have still referred to Garrath as Argrath of Pavis (since Garrath spent several years there) and not care much about Bad Dream Enostar, the ruler of Pavis. IMO.
>More problematic to me is the fact that M.Blue cites 1632 for the year when
>Argrath presented himself to Queen Leika - or was this the year when he had
>fulfilled the promise to return the Karandoli clan from the Other Side made
>in 1627 after his victory at Sword Hill?
What's this 'promise [...] made in 1627'?
>There is another "evidence" that the Telmori may have survived - they are
>part of the Sartar _Free Army_, i.e. the volunteers following Argrath, in DP
>boardgame. While this _may_ be outdated source material, I doubt that.
The units are the Wolfskins rather than the Telmori IMO. They use the souls of the skinned Telmori to aid them in their shapeshifting. A simple and elegant solution...
>My solution for this dilemma is that Argrath made Enostar a lieutenant, and
>had him keep an eye on his Praxian and Pol Joni allies while he himself
>negotiated with the Grazers (not a diplomatic mission I would take Praxians
>to). They may have camped in the Better Place, right east of Telmori
>territory.
I really don't see any connection between *the* Argrath and Bad Dream Enostar. Bad Dream Enostar really only meets with Argrath Whitebull who is killed by Tatius in 1625 and the Praxian Alliance that he has assembled is destroyed. (Deneros says otherwise but considering that he has Argrath lighting the flame of Sartar in 1627, I'm not inclined to trust him on this).
Thus *the* Argrath can't have had praxian allies to negotiate with the Grazers after the Brown Dragon Rising. Also note that Argrath Whitebull has enlisted the aid of Jaldon Toothmaker who is solely interested in plundering Dragon Pass. He doesn't sound like the type of Ally that *the* Argrath would want to liberate the people of Dragon Pass with. Furthermore the Pol-joni are hostile to Jaldon Toothmaker and the Praxians because of the deeds of Derik Pol-Joni. *And* I strongly doubt that the Praxians would ally with the Horse riding Pol Joni or with someone who is intending to marry the Feathered Horse Queen.
:: the werewolf folk turned against Argrath, plundering the herds of the :: folk to make Argrath's men stay at home.
>Now which folk of Argrath's would have relied most strongly on their herds?
>His Praxian and Pol Joni allies.
Cattle and horse herds are also kept by the Sartarites.
>Note that the Monster Army can (and IMO
>should) be identified with a chaos eruption from Snake Pipe Hollow rather
>than with the Telmori tribe
Who is identifying the Northern Monster Army as being Telmori? The Ur-Saga text implies that the Telmori are the internal enemies rather than the Monster Armies which were ordered by the Emperor to assault Sartar. The Lunars are able to make Larnste's print erupt to suppress a revolt by Brian at another time.
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #62
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