>Not proven. The contest is presumably risky, but I doubt it's always
>fatal for non-winners. If we think about its original incarnation as
>a multi-player boardgame, it's unlikely the victory conditions force
>the winner to kill off all the losers: more likely the winner is the
>first one to the central hex of the City of Wonders (or whatever).
I heard that the setting has once been the subject of a small freeform, Sartar Hich Council-like, in the Chaosium campaign, too. I'd shed real bucks if that item (provided it exists) ever showed up at an auction...
>I'm quite fond of the idea that contestants in previous tournaments
>might attempt to participate again, or alternatively (if this isn't
>allowed) coach or train their successors to do better than they did.
That proposes that they know who their successors will be, and when the next tournament is going to strike. The latter part is easier, all you have to do is watch the Pharaoh's health. When it declines, brace yourself...
Of course it is likely that representants of the various Sixths' ruling classes will participate, but I doubt that all the political or spiritual/magical leaders will be allowed to participate. After all, they cease to function as leaders once they win the Tournament, so nothing is won to their people.
>But I don't recall any sources touching on this matter. It would be
>a shame if a failed Tournament (like the ones held after the spirit-
>ual dismemberment of Belintar) resulted in the virtual decapitation
>of the Holy Country's most powerful and able leaders, too...
Provided they participate. That's the part I am least sure of - surely the Ruling Talar of God Forgot would have won after his umpteenth go at a Tournament if this was the case, and a fat lot of good would that do to the Holy Country, a leader changing from a decrepit body into one kept alive by magic.
>and a
>real campaign-fucker if all but one of your toughest NPC leaders had
>to be retired whenever Pharaoh shuffles off his present mortal coil.
Yes. Isn't it much nicer to have all (well, most) of them reappear a tad wiser, perhaps more powerful, and a bit chastized, after a Tournament?
>(Remember: hosting Belintar's spirit ages bodies unnaturally. Those
>tournaments could be unpleasantly frequent).
We have only one explicite date for a successful TotMoLaD: 1336, 23 years after Belintar swam ashore, 18 years after he became Pharaoh. Ok, this was his original incarnation, and may have been tougher than the succeeding ones, but it also had to survive five gruelling years of conquest, being eaten, sacrificed, married etc for the first time, and for quite real. Assuming that Belintar beached at age 30 or so (having gathered some experience before stranding in Kethaela) this suggests that his (original, though) body aged a maximum of twice as fast as it would have naturally.
There is an implied date for a TotMoLaD in the Dragon Pass rules (p.31):
: A vacancy in the throne of the Pharoah to the south drew off many of : Sartar's best swordsmen and seekers, and the Lunar Empire seized the : opportunity to invade the kingdom and sack Boldhome. The royal house : resisted vigorously and received posthumous Hero recognition for their : deeds. Any survivors were hunted across the world by agents and assassins.
This ancient source implies that it is possible to volunteer for a TotMoLaD, and that this was what all the Sartarite royals were doing in 1602. We know that many survived, and were hunted down by Lunar "gentlemen" after the Fall of Boldhome.
This also suggests that 14 years (or less, there may have been another Tournament before 1616) was close to an expected life span for an incarnation of the Pharaoh. Given my Freca Tales endeavour, I'd almost welcome about five to seven years for an incarnation. That might mean that the Esrolian harvest king rites - extended to the longer period - were indeed the end stages of the Pharaoh's incarnations.
On the other hand, I'd prefer annual rites to be performed in each of the Sixths.
>It looks like MGF demands that, while contestants *can* die in a
>Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death, or kill each other off,
>normally the losers would expect to survive -- whether or not they
>are ever eligible to participate again.
RQ Companion says something vague about this while talking about Dormal:
: The Holy Country contained many old secrets which people sought. The : investigations of the Jrusteli and Wyrm's Frienders had unleashed : terrible powers which changed the face of the world. Heroquesting had : explored and released many ancient things which were blamed for the : terrible state of life in the era between 1100 and 1600. Thus peoples : shied from investigation and heroquesting. Yet such forces cannot be : suppressed by official decree nor unnatural fear once they are : remembered, and folk across the continent again used them, carefully.
: Dormal the Sailor was one such, fostered by the benevolence of the : Pharoah's land.
I think we all agree that a TotMoLaD is about heroquesting. The last sentence suggests that the regular high level heroquesting event fostered magical talents familiar with heroquesting. For what it's worth, I believe that Sartar "mastered the Mobility Rune" during his participation on a TotMoLaD... and I find it likely that both Dormal and Sartar would have qualified as victors, but declined because they saw their own ways to godhood ahead of them.
Peter Metcalfe takes issue with my musings on Argrath:
>Jain did not write the list save for the entry for Renedali (where
>her mother is mentioned) and the spurious dates.
Well, she likely wrote down an oral tradition - after all writing had been forgotten already for a while before Jurstan discovered the Writing Room in Cliffhome.
>The existance of
>Maroflo and Halifitoor recieves support in the Zin List as recited
>by Dag. I do not think that Dag borrowed from the Sacred Kings List
>as he knows not Unstey, lists Joristans (Jarastan?) as succeeding
>Instad and not Londario and so forth. Thus I'm inclined to believe
>that the information about Halifitoor and Maraflo is credible.
IMO Dag's list is hardly set in stone. Note that Halifitoor is listed as a son of Sorana Tor. Another suspicious parallel to the Illaro dynasty, isn't it? Of course, it is entirely possible that Argrath tried to restart the Illaro dynasty by naming his sons of Sorana like Illaro's sons.
Also look at the dates. If the conclusion is at least half way correct about identifying Inkarne with Argrath's bride of _16_43, then Unstey would have ruled to 1643, starting sometime after Mularik. Unstey sounds slightly similar to Annstad (of Dunstop), who is absent in Dag's list but listed in CHDP. This makes Enjeem a contemporary of Argrath during his rise, and a possible NPC for a Dragon Pass based campaign.
While I'm at it, I'd cut out Inkarne from the list, and continue with Instand and Londario right away from _16_43. A flood is not mentioned in Inkarne's list of cataclysms, but given the other events, would have been as likely.
>>The obscure quarrel will have been between Argrath
>>and Kallyr, probably over how aggressive Sartarite politics vs. Lunar Tarsh
>>should be.
>There's nothing to say that Kallyr was the person who Argrath was
>arguing with.
Right, but in order to matter to the Telmori, Argrath's quarrel must either have been directly with them, or with their sworn protegee, Kallyr.
>The only thing that we can be certain of is that in
>connection with a quarrel with Argrath of Pavis, the Telmori swore
>revenge. As for politics, the gulf is much deeper than mere aggression.
>Argrath is the one who went to aid the family of prominent Lunar
>General which is not something that Kallyr would do.
Yes, but apparently he did so only after Kallyr had died. M.Blue and CHDP agree on that sequence, if not on the dates.
>>Or over his marriage to the Feathered Horse Queen, if Densesros of CHDP fame
>>did get that date right. (He remains oddly silent about this incident...)
>One must remember that the CHDP that we have is a corrupt version
>which has various bits left out.
Amen. However, I do blame Densesros. CHDP looks to me like a political corrected version of the history. I'd be interested in the person of the editor or censor who made Densesros do this - from his documentation of the earlier history, he did work honestly and to his best (meagre) knowledge.
>Take a look at the text of
>_Argrath's Mothers_ (p172) and compare it to the same text in the
>CHDP. One notices that the Argrath book contains a lot of details
>that are not found in the CHDP.
Yes. It's relevant to the Telmori theme, too... which makes political editing for the CHDP likely, again.
>Therefore IMO the CHDP that we have is an imperfect copy.
Yes. It has been abridged of all annoying truths which distract from the glory of its recipient, Argrath. The only negative event in Argrath's career described here is the battle of Yoran, in which Densesros' master's lord may have fought on the Lunar side... I believe it was Karndaro the Leaper who was succeeded by his torturer (p.157). This makes Penraltan the Killer (a fitting epithet) a Lunar cronie at the start of his chieftainship. Of course, by the time Dwernapple was fought he had changed sides, and allied with Argrath.
The mention of the "real events" of this year is even more important when you look at the romantically revised version of Argrath's defeat at Yoran, which is made look like Cu Chulainn holding off the Leinster army from Ulster on his own from his chariot. Densesros must have had a good reason to put his finger into this wound... (The memory of that event may have been too fresh, but then there weren't that many survivors, either.)
>IMO Harrek did not slay King Brian as the latter had been dead since
>1625 when he marched through the lands of the Kitori.
I agree that Brian was delayed in 1625 when the vengeful Kitori slew him. However, Brian was an accomplished heroquester, and I tend to believe the Saga over Densesros, who fails to mention the entire Heortland episode when even M.Blue gives corroborative evidence. Let's just say that Brian's reappearance has been edited out, or was lost, whichever you prefer.
>The Kitori loosed
>a portion of the Pharaoh they had kept and the resulting spirit destroyed
>Brian and his army because he had let Harrek destroy the City of Wonders.
Nice theory. I don't believe it, though - who would have given them that piece? The Lunars, who invaded Kitori lands a year after they allegedly dismembered the Pharaoh and his court spiritually?
>Minaryth would have still referred to Garrath as Argrath of Pavis
>(since Garrath spent several years there) and not care much about
>Bad Dream Enostar, the ruler of Pavis. IMO.
He calls him Argrath Maniskison for his ascendance to the throne.
In extensive off-line discussions I have been convinced that there were a couple of Argraths around and active in the years from 1620 to 1640. IMO Garrath Sharpsword rode with Argrath White Bull against Corflu and Pavis in 1625, and fought at Moonbroth as well. I've let myself be convinced that both of them escaped, since there are interesting plot lines available in that case. (If Jaldon my dentist hadn't cashed in the money I had planned for the flight to Victoria, I would address this and other subjects at the KoS panel... I hope Steve does without me.)
>>More problematic to me is the fact that M.Blue cites 1632 for the year when
>>Argrath presented himself to Queen Leika - or was this the year when he had
>>fulfilled the promise to return the Karandoli clan from the Other Side made
>>in 1627 after his victory at Sword Hill?
>What's this 'promise [...] made in 1627'?
Sorry, I've been unclear. Minaryth Blue gives 1632 for the date when Leika receives Argrath into the Colymar tribe. However, Densesros gives 1627 for his getting support from the Colymar, before the Flame of Sartar is relit (by Orlanth, neither Kallyr nor Argrath).
In Jalk's Book, in "Prince Argrath and the Colymar", his dialogue with Leika is told in detail.
Leika addresses Argrath as "our prince". This sounds like he already had ascended the throne of Sartar at the time of that dialogue. However, in CHDP the Aldachuri "raised him upon their sacred shield". As their champion, Densesros puts it, but that just _might_ be read as "as their prince". (Prince of the Aldachuri, not of Sartar.) In this case, his "went to Clearwine for a blessing from the Colymar, and got it" might relate to the story in Jalk's Book. If so (and that's a big IF) then Argrath would have made his promise to return the Karandoli clan to the Colymar in 1627.
Leika says at the end of "Prince Argrath and the Colymar":
"No king of the Sartari [...] would scorn the chance to have you as its member, and I will not be the first. If you can bring your people to their old homes, in the manner you have described, OVER THE NEXT FIVE YEARS, then you shall all be reinstated as members of the Colymar tribe." (Emphasis mine...)
Applying basic arithmetics, 1627+5=1632...
Wolf Runners:
>>There is another "evidence" that the Telmori may have survived - they are
>>part of the Sartar _Free Army_ [...]
>The units are the Wolfskins rather than the Telmori IMO. They use
>the souls of the skinned Telmori to aid them in their shapeshifting.
>A simple and elegant solution...
Unless you look at the RQ terminology of Telmori magic ("Wolfrunning" is their variant of Hykim's "Transform Limb").
>I really don't see any connection between *the* Argrath and Bad Dream
>Enostar.
If we agree that *the* Argrath is identical to Garrath Sharpsword, then there would have been sufficient opportunity for him to meet Enostar in Pavis. The city ain't that big...
>Bad Dream Enostar really only meets with Argrath Whitebull
>who is killed by Tatius in 1625 and the Praxian Alliance that he has
>assembled is destroyed. (Deneros says otherwise but considering that
>he has Argrath lighting the flame of Sartar in 1627, I'm not inclined
>to trust him on this).
I found that Densesros _never_ lies in his descriptions. He rarely tells a full truth, either, and often errs in the dates he gives, but overall he obeys Grey Sage customs. His CHDP is as sneaky an argument as many of the digest contributions Peter and I have exchanged...
>Thus *the* Argrath can't have had praxian allies to negotiate with
>the Grazers after the Brown Dragon Rising.
He has the Bullocks, Twin Spears, Sword Brothers, and Pavis Royal Guard in DP.
Note that I said that he did _not_ bring any Praxians to court the FHQ.
>Also note that Argrath
>Whitebull has enlisted the aid of Jaldon Toothmaker who is solely
>interested in plundering Dragon Pass.
Where is this from? During my off-line discussions I have developed a theory on White Bull involving Jaldon, and this source might contribute to it or shatter it.
>He doesn't sound like the
>type of Ally that *the* Argrath would want to liberate the people
>of Dragon Pass with.
Neither do Mularik, the Telmori, Delecti, Harrek and Gunda, or Argrath's Malkioni buddies (Sir Narib, Baron Sanuel).
In these offline discussions it was concluded that *the* Argrath was quite an asshole.
>Furthermore the Pol-joni are hostile to Jaldon
>Toothmaker and the Praxians because of the deeds of Derik Pol-Joni.
>*And* I strongly doubt that the Praxians would ally with the Horse
>riding Pol Joni or with someone who is intending to marry the
>Feathered Horse Queen.
Yet in DP Jaldon leads the Barbarian Horde, consisting of three Pol Joni clans, two Amber clans and one each Potor and Ansil clans plus the tribal magicians Flash Jak, And-jay and Krise.
(Anybody with ideas on the nature of these clans or magicians out there? John Castellucci had Utora Krise and his warband present at Whitewall in RQA #4, but that's the only use of any of these names I've ever seen outside of the DP rules, excepting the Pol Joni of course.)
The Praxians have been known to ally with the Pure Horse Tribe against the troll invasion led by Geras Kag. And they are rumoured to ally with Malia or Thed on occasion...
>Who is identifying the Northern Monster Army as being Telmori?
I, as the devil's advocate. Or rather because no monster army is mentioned for the period between 1625 and 1635...
>The
>Ur-Saga text implies that the Telmori are the internal enemies rather
>than the Monster Armies which were ordered by the Emperor to assault
>Sartar. The Lunars are able to make Larnste's print erupt to suppress
>a revolt by Brian at another time.
Yes, but not in the time I mentioned above (according to you, Brian was dead by this time.)
Jane Williams provided me with a nice theory that identified "Jar-eel" in that battle against Harrek (p.27) with Queen Kallyr. Compare with M.Blue... Could the heart worn by Harrek afterwards have been the star jewel of Kallyr's?
I said above that IMO Densesros didn't lie about facts he tells in CHDP. Densesros reports the deaths of both Kallyr (in 1626, Battle of the Queens, aka Battle of Old Top in M.Blue's Events of my Life) and Brian (in 1625, by Kitori magic). Given the magical nature of Glorantha, and the concept that heroquesters often know a back door out of Hell, I believe that both deaths occurred as described.
Minaryth Blue reports Kallyr alive and kicking until 1630. I have come to regard his dates as the correct ones (though the entries for a given year may be out of order, as with 1627), and I see no reason why he should lie to us.
The Argrath Saga gives us a different view at the events of 1628 (Argrath's duel with Harrek under the beaks of the Guardian Cranes), and gives us another date for Brian's death. Can you give me any reason why this is a falsified account of what happened? Unless you can, I won't accept Brian's death in 1625 as his final exitus, not any more than Kallyr's in 1626.
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #63
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