The most important (or at least most urgent) thing I want to say (so I'm putting it at the top) is that I think asking Greg to explain about the God Learners and the Goddess Switch and when and how this occurred in Pelorian history might be a dollar well spent at the Lore Auction. Any takers?
I think part of the controversy can be taken to the semantics of the term God Learning. The term gets used in a whole variety of ways. There is, in a rough order of most specific to least specific: The God Learner Empire, as also called the Jrusteli Empire of the Middle Sea Empire. This definately didn't reach Peloria, or even get close.
The God Learner Religion - a lot of what was then God Learner religion is now part of modern day Malkionism. If this reached Peloria at all, it was changed greatly in the process.
God Learner Magical Techniques, as used by the Jrusteli Empire, and also several other notable groups of the time, such as the False Dragons Ring and the Six Legged Empire, groups that were otherwise politically and religiously distinct.
and
Magical/heroquest Techniques somewhat similar to those the God Learners
were noted for experimenting with, in that they changed the nature of the
religions.
Now, most of the problem issues from people using the term 'God Learning' in the last, least specific, sense. Anyone that performs some act that changes the nature of some religion can be described as a 'God Learner'. Its just not very useful terminology. Arkat, for example, certainly performed some such manipulations - and preceded the God Learners by centuries. Barring use of God Learner specific magics like the RuneQuest Sight, or the God Learning ritual, its probably best not to just refer to any such magic as 'God Learning'.
So, the Red Goddess certainly did some similar sort of things to the acts the God Learners where famous for - but that doesn't make her a 'God Learner', by any means. And its even possible that she may have known a little of their magical techniques - but that still doesn't make her a God Learner. Did she share the attitudes and philosophy of the God Learners? Not much.
>Coud Illumination have protected some God Learners from the wrath
>of the Gift Bringers? This may be important, as some of these very
>same Illuminated God Learners, or there descendants, were involved
>in the re-creation of the Red Goddess. At the very least, I assume that
>
>the 7 Mothers themselves were Illuminated.
I think a characterisation of the origins of the Lunar religion as 'Illuminated God Learners' is wildly off track. As far as I know, at least some of the Seven Mothers where Illuminated (or Sevened, in Lunar terminology) during their heroquesting, without study.
>David C. expounded that he didn't
>think that GLism made many inroads into Peloria, thus its impact on the
>creation of the RG was nil.
I think it was someone else who said that, but I thoroughly agree that the God Learners made almost no political inroads into Peloria, and probably had fairly little intellectual influence.
Andrew Joelson happened to mention
>Illumination is a mystic/
>philosphical mindset that is achieved by Deists.
I think its achievable by anyone, and important to anyone. We know that the mystics of Kralorela know of it. And Arkat was ofcourse Illuminated while still a Malkioni. And Illumination is the central mystery of the Nysalor cult - if Illumination had no attraction to the Malkioni, would it have spread throughout Ralios, so tenaciously it needed a brutal civil war to remove?
Personally, I think the essence of Illumination is it allows you to reconcile the unreconcilable within yourself - to believe the impossible. Among other things, it might allow Malkioni to access some deist magic without ceasing to be Malkioni believers (in a frightfully heretical manner).
>The GL/
>Malkioni mindset is not one that produces Illumination.
This, however, quite true. I think there were probably God Learners who departed from the standard God Learner path and investigated things such as Illumination - but I don't think Illumination was something your average God Learner would have understood or desired.
Chris Bell wrote (though he did it with worse line wrapping)
>From some previous postings here on the digest, I've seen it written that
>>Irripi Ontor was not only a priest of Lhankor
>Mhy, but also was Yanafal Tarnil's court Vizier and a fairly powerful
>practicioner of Carmanian/Malkioni style sorcery. How did he do this and also
>practice Lightbringer worship? Illumination
Actually, the digest, not being an individual, is perfectly capable of believing multiple contradictory points of view without being Illuminated.
In other words, I don't think just because various people (or even various old sources) have at different times claimed that Irripi was both a Lhankor Mhy cultist and a Carmanian sorcerer (or a Dara Happan Buserium, for that matter, as I think I've also seen claimed) that you should believe all of these were simultaneously true.
>What it seems that Mike is pointiing out is the essential factor in
>Illumination is not a Deist or Atheist mindset... It's one's attitudes and
>>views in regards to Chaos and Law (or orderly structures) in Gloranatha
>and >within oneself.
I think its a mistake to conceive of Illumination as being 'about' attitudes to Chaos essentially. Its about being able to reconcile unreconcilable points of view, the emotional and mystical (not merely intellectual) understanding that there is no one single truth. While this does mean that Illuminates can understand that the Chaos viewpoint is also valid, Illumination is not about just Chaos. Yelm is supposed to be Illuminated, yet Yelmic thought does not even recognise Chaos as a unique force.
>Illumination is Psychic Liberation
Yes, thats more like it. Illumination lets you cast off your own psychic restrictions. Which makes it interesting to think about what is a restriction of your own psyche, rather than an external force.
Cheers
David
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