Take note that "The Fox King" is based on Foul King Brangbane of the Dinacoli (booh, hiss), a horse-riding, sun-worshipping Orlanthi tribe speaking a variant of Tarshite. Pelorian Orlanthi seem to have some quaint customs different from the Manirian ones. Manirians: Year King (yes, I believe that Arim's Sorana Tor was an Esrolite priestess somehow come to Kerofin); Pelorians: Headhunting, Cannibalism (in parts of Aggar)...
Steve Martin chimes in:
>Jeff Richard
>>I'm not Pam, but I am the GM for ToDP - so I am probably a good person
>>to answer this one. And the answer is: NO. The Heortlings [are no
headhunters]
I'm not sure whether this really should be "Heortlings" or rather "Quivini"... There are several possible influences for the Pelorian Orlanthi which tend to head-hunting. Like the Hyalorings, Alkothi, and the traditions Porscriptor the Cannibal (from Aggar) may have passed on to his descendants (the Skanthi?).
>While most Sartarites are not head-takers now, I will differ from Jeff
>and assert that they were in the past. No, I take that back -- some of
>them still are in the 1620's. Look at the Dragon Pass boardgame -- one of
>the native Sartarite units is called Headhunters. Look at the god Than,
>whose mythos specifically mentions Ginijji in the original write-up -- he
>is a headhunter.
Isn't Ginijji a Winter Tribe place?
Karse:
Rich Ohlson
>My campaign is currently centered on Karse, and I was wondering if
>anybody has decent estimates of the size of the city.
As Nick most graciously mentioned, I do use the Midkemia-Caernarfon version of Karse in my Heortland. That city has an estimated size of 4500 to 6000 permanent residents in the places shown on the map. IMG there are a sizeable fishermens village and some shipyards located a bit downriver from the city as shown on the map.
>I have been tentativly running on the estimation that there are about
>10,000 people living there. The total population of Sartar is 180,000
>(according to the Glorantha backround book.) Is 10k too much, or too
>little?
I give about 15k for the "Barony of Karse", or "The Karse", that is the lower Marzeel Valley (ex-Creek-Stream River valley, until Belintar changed that). The city is ruled independently from Heortland as one result of the 1325-1350 civil wars in Heortland (which sent a second wave of refugees into Quiviniland).
>I have also been assuming that much of Karse's economy is based on being
>a trade port with trade routes from the sea to the Lunar Empire.
Well, sort of used to back when:
- - the Creek-Stream River still entered the Mirrorsea here - - the Oceans had not been closed, and - - Dragon Pass was freely passable.
I.e. back in the age of the Jrusteli and EWF.
With the Closing and the Dragonkill, Karse was practically abandoned at the end of the Second Age. IMG it was "resettled" on the opposite shore of the original (now haunted) ruins of the city by Hendriki dissident nobles, who received the Karse as a direct grant by the Pharaoh. (This is partly derived from the independence of the barony in the Midkemia-Press/Chaosium release, and partly from the fact that the Lunar conquest of Karse in 1619 did not provoke a retaliation by the King of "Malkonwal".) In my Holy Country there are several such smaller political entities supporting the Pharaoh out of self-interest, Rhigos being the largest, Karse the best described. (I regard Porthomeka, the Volsaxi tribal lands and the Kitori woods/Haunted Lands as similarly independent of the adjacent Sixths, and might want to include Longsiland in northwestern Esrolia.)
Back to Karse: When it was resettled, the Oceans still were closed - unlike the Mirrorsea, where the Closing had receded soon after the initial shipwrecking wave.
Oh well, another digression: IMO the effect of the Closing is subject to some sort of tides before the Manirian coast. At its height, it even entered the Mirrorsea, later on it allowed some coastal traffic between the Mournsea and the Mirrorsea, which the Only Old One used with his troll-crewed fleet of black ships mentioned in the RQ-Companion article on the Holy Country. IMO this fleet was wrecked when it misjudged the Closing Tide off the Poison Shore, some time in the eleventh or 12th century.
Karse again: The newly resettled city (around 1350) attracted immigrants from Esrolia, Heortland, and Islander/fisherfolk. Its main function was to provide a safe trade route between Heortland and lands north of it with Esrolia, past the Shadow Plateau.
IMO the trolls weren't that pleased to be ruled by the Pharaoh, and they and their human allies - the Kitori who ruled the Haunted Lands and the upper Marzeel Valley - were not inclined to let traders pass between Esrolia and the Hendriki kingdom without harrassment or severe tolls. (Trade through Dragon Pass was marginal, at best, before the Pharaoh sent his agent Sartar north...)
Karse provided the first safe (from troll and newtling buccaneers, that is) harbour for ships coming from Nochet past the Tangle and Frog Island. Esrolian grain would be useful to feed the increasing urban population in the Hendriki kingdom (and that of Karse as well). Hendriki wool and cloth needed to be transported west, so that the Trader Princes could bring it to Ralios and Seshnela. While the Hendriki kingdom had three other seaports it controlled directly - Leskos, Vizel, and since about 1380 Refuge as well - Jansholm and the northern third of its realm would be best served via Karse. This way, the relatively small barony had a hinterland of roughly 150,000 people from northern Heortland, which gives quite a volume for trading possibilities.
>Are their other crafts and trades that are particularly notable for Karse?
IMG Karse has an important financial fair in which debts are settled for much of the Holy Country. This fair attracts much coins which have to be transported, since debts often are signed in a certain denomination to avoid uncertainties of exchange.
Since the Opening, Karse has four major shipyards, and the vast Pharaonic demand for new ships during the first decade of the Opening has established quite an industry. IMG the port of Dosakayo (on a small island offshore of Teshnos) still is under Kethaelan control - think Goa, Hongkong, or comparable European colonial ports in eastern Asia - so there still is a large merchant fleet afloat. (After all, the wolf pirates need something to prey on...)
>I also have three notable military units in the city. First, there is a
>Regiment of the Lunar Army. One that's big enough to keep any
>"neighbors" from snicking the city off.
If you use the Caernarfon model for Karse, English experience with Welsh uprisings has proven that a force of twenty men-at-arms could hold the castle (though not always the city) against major risings. If you want to defend the walled part of the city, I'd assume that a force of 200 regulars should be able to stand off anything locally available short of a full wolf pirate invasion (in which case four regiments of hoplites and a corps of Lunar magicians still would be hard pressed). Add up to twice that number in outlying posts and on patrol, and you get a reasonably sized Lunar garrison for 1620-1624. If that many, since Tatius the Bright didn't care much about occupied Heortland, unlike Fazzur and his Tarshite club of officers, and Fazzur had little need to leave a large force in Karse with his people still pacifying "Malkonwal" in 1620 and 1621.
>Second, their is a town watch/local militia. Technically, they would be
>members of the Lunar Army, though a large portion of them would be
>recruited from locals and less concerned with drilling and real battle.
I'm not sure what happened to the baron at the conquest of Karse in 1619. He might well have died on the walls, defending against the dragonewt mercenaries, but then the city was not sacked, and so he might as well have become Fazzur's puppet ruler. Most of the defenders had been slain, including able-bodied militia, but a certain body of veterans may have survived. If so, these could form his body-guard, maybe 20 to 50 strong. (Like Temertain's two bodyguard forces...)
Guild-sponsored militia, with Lunar non-coms training them, might make up some constabulary.
>Third, there is the Palace Guard and the Governers personal bodyguard.
>They would be about the same size as the un-called up town watch. (If
>that makes any sense.)
The Gouvernors personal force might be about 20-50 guards as well, plus his taxman contingent.
>Anyhow, the questions:
> Is a city size of 10,000 appropriate?
I have settled for a city of 6,000 to 8,000.
> What is the standard size for a Lunar Regiment? 1000?
Yes. However, garrison duty is often done by detachments of a full regiment. Compare the detachment sizes in Tarsh War...
>What size of a town watch would be appropriate for a city of 10,000?
>500?
The Midkemia-press city has a town watch of 200 (not counting personnel in the castle or outlying fortresses), which is IMO quite high. But then, Karse is a port, with lots of outlandish people roaming about, so some greater effort to keep peace can be expected.
>Would an additional 500 make up a decent militia?
under training: yes.
>Is 500 soldiers excessive for a Palace Guard?
Definitely. We know that Temertain, Prince of Sartar, had a guard of 100 Telmori and 100 Humakti (before that Storm Bull High Holy Day incident). Karse doesn't have a ruler of this calibre.
>In an emergency, would it be exessive to think that a good 4,000 people
>could come to the defence of the city?
Recruiting ships in port, caravan guards (remember that the trade route north passes between Shadow Plateau and the Troll Woods, not to mention the Volsaxi tribes and Heortland outlaw bands), perhaps. However, in this case Karse has recently (1619) suffered the loss of about 3,000 inhabitants...
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #131
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