I agree with Nick completely here. What little there exists of Harmast's Saga bears this out as well. When Harmast is initiated, he actually goes to Orlanth's Hall (if I remember correctly) and sees his father, who has been dead for a number of years. Also, somewhere Greg has a list of all the places Harmast went during the High Holy Day rituals each year (HHD, note, not Sacred Time) as an initiate. One time he went to a Godtime battle, I don't remember any others.
Also, the Eiritha station of Biturian's Travels (on the Chaosium web page) is a station Nick left off in his discussion, which also shows that even the 'mere' initiates can see the "inner secrets" of the rites.
Patrik Sandberg
>I also think that in some clans there might not even be enough Rune
levels to fill >all the major roles of the Short Lightbringer Quest
I think Patrik is correct here. In a place like Apple Lane, for example, most of the roles will in fact be filled by initiates. And, just as many Christian churches do in America each year with their Christmas pageants, I also think it is likely that children will either fill some of the roles or, more likely, be coached into giving their own holy day performance. At least in some religions, such as Ernalda's or (especially) Voria's.
>But the feeling was just quite not there. It was hard to pick
>the players interest. A strong feeling of pre-determination set
>the mood for the session. It was as if the players felt that
>they didn't control their own characters, they had no choices.
>This was pre-arranged and stiff.
It occurs to me that this probably ran very much the way it was supposed to. Remember, most heroquests are NOT God-Learner/Arkati heroquests. They are very set and structured passion plays. If the players had felt any inkling that they had some control over their characters, they might have improvised. And in this type of quest, improvisation is NOT a good thing.
>The overall feeling the session left was that it is very
>difficult to make this ritual stuff into interesting
>role-playing challenges for the players. I wonder if this is not
>also a potential problem for HeroQuest and its playability...
The interest comes, I think, in the way you interact with foes, and in the small bits you can throw in which are not a set part of the rite. For example, certain stages have chaos foes in one version of the quest, trolls in another, and maybe something else in a third. Trickster is always a good source of trouble. Although the general nature of the foes and locales is known, specifics will always differ, even if the quest is run in the same place. C.f. the quest of Leika Ballista in Wyrms Footprints -- she enacts her quest in Snake-Pipe Hollow, but it is nothing like the normal chaos-infested haunt everyone knows, in part because of her quest (IMO).
When the players are hit with unexpected events, they may have to improvise just to stay alive. As long as this is done within the context of the LBQ (in your example), they should still be within their parameters.
(see King of Sartar pages 165-169)
So, in The Westfaring, have a stranger arrive with a bucket as the "Army of the Sea". The players must choose whether to let him fill the role, or whether to have the prepared villagers do it (and thus risk ruining the magic).
In The Descent, "the known tests" are Knowing, Healing, Fighting, Communicating, and Riddling. But there may be different local traditions. Also, the nature of these tests is not always obvious -- it does not have to be Lhankor Mhy who does the Knowing, Chalana the Healing, Orlanth the Fighting, Issaries the Communicating, and Eurmal the Riddling. There could be more obscure or hidden tests for Flesh Man -- the entire quest, riding on joe everyman!
At The Obsidian Palace, surprise the players by having morocanth, members of the Torkani, or darkness-worshiping ducks represent the trolls. When Orlanth is Alone in Hell, the Hidden Spark does not have to be a fire. It can be a matrix for the Light spell, a sparkling gemstone, a mirrored shield, or even a white dove.
Also, what happened to the other Lightbringers when Orlanth was Alone in Hell? They were alone in hell, too, and might have their own cultic versions of the trial. Thus, Chalana Arroy may find herself among a field of wounded, all of whom need her to heal them, but only one of whom represents her son, Arroin, who is the one she must try to heal. Lhankor Mhy might find himself searching for the Mistress of the Light of Knowledge, and have to face Tien. Remember -- just as many of Orlanth's myths are seen as occurring as part of the LBQ, so too are many of the other Lightbringers' myths.
Sorry to go on so long, but I just wanted to show that, while I believe the ritual HQs are very set and structured, as GM there are many ways they can be livened up to interest the players, while still requiring them to act in character. Imagine the dilemna of a Lhankor Mhy who has to give away knowledge for free to a foe on the quest, because that is what his god did. An Issaries who must drop his most valuable possession on the run, because Issaries lost his goods at one station. An Orlanth who must refuse to fight a foe, no matter how offensive they are, because this is the place where Orlanth sought peace with his enemies.
>I think his
>background explains his ability to _see_ things normally hidden
>to a mere Lhankor Mhy. Geolgar is, or becomes, what could be
>called "emotionally involved" in the ceremony. He is in a border
>region between "lay member" and inititate, because of his
>background. Therefore, he can observe both the ceremony's
>mundane ritual parts (with masks and implements etc), and parts
>of its actual God-time contents (the voice of Orlanth,
>Flintslingers on the horizon, a brief glimpse of Aroka etc).
First of all, as an initiate of Lhankor Mhy, Geolgin is an initiate of the Orlanth religion (usually), and so it is no mystery to me that he can see most of the secret inner meanings of the Orlanth ritual. Remember that the RQ representation of separate and distinct cults is quite inaccurate in some ways -- this is The Religion of Orlanth and Ernalda", after all.
Also, I do not think it is simultaneously possible for a person to both see the sacred meanings and the mundane representations of a ritual. Either you see a guy in a mask, or you see Orlanth. Maybe an illuminate could manage to see both (but see below), but I think that is it.
I think the descriptions in Troll Gods are completely consistent with those of an outsider, especially one observing troll rituals. If I, as an outsider, viewed an Orlanth ceremony, I would still feel the winds raise, and see the clouds gather, nd feel the rain. I might also feel the oppressive humidity and air pressure as the ceremony's preparations neared completion. If I viewed a Telmori ceremony, I would see most of the participants turn into wolves shortly before I was devoured. Etc.
On Illuminates -- do people think they can still see the sacred meanings of these rituals, or is that one of the things they lose. I have this great image of the illuminated Orlanth priest officiating for years based on his memories, because all he can see is the guys in masks holding sacred implements.
As for Orlanth holy day correspondences, there is an old unpublished bit at Chaosium I saw which talks about the Orlanthi religion more generally.
The Sea Season rituals for the Orlanthi center around Heler, God of Rain. This takes the form of a planting ceremony.
The Fire Season ceremonies center around "Yelmalio" (now Elmal).
The Earth Season rituals celebrate Ernalda above all others (of course). It is one of the most sacred times of the year, but takes different aspects depending on the cult's specific form of worship. The Cult of Young Varnaval (precursor to Voriof the Shepherd) is common to both Ernalda and Orlanth Thunderous, and so it is a time of great sorrow over his death. The worshipers of Barntar are joyful, however, and full of plenty.
In Dark Season there is no major holiday, though Orlanth, Ernalda, and Elmal all have minor holy days. It is often propitiatory in nature.
In Storm Season, Orlanth's festival of course takes precedence. It is a time of great celebration.
Keep in mind these are extremely old notes I am paraphrasing from, but they give an idea of how it is the religion, not the cult, which is often foremost to the worshipers. How many catholics are so devoted to one saint that they cannot participate in a standard Mass?
Mr. Tines on Guilds
>About the time Cults of Prax came out, there was discussion
>in _Alarums and Excursions_ about how to fit guilds into the
>same environment; and one person proposed a "standard Guild
>template" to match the cult template.
The indefatigueable John T. Sapienza.
>The main stubling block
>was seen to be that of magic : in the theist part of Genertela
>which was all that was know about at the time, the monopoly of
>the cults upon magic and ceremony gave them a significant
>boost over purely mundane guild structures.
And in fact this was to some extent written into RQ2 -- the Alchemist's Guild was seen to be an arm of the Lhankor Mhy cult. The Weaponmaster's Guild was part of the Humakt cult.
But I agree that a guild-oriented system is bound to be quite weak in a theistic culture where magic works, though published writings have stated that there is a strong guild structure in Dara Happa.
What is the likelihood of powerful guilds in the West, however? There, magic is the domain of the wizardly caste, mostly, not of any particular group, and it is not as specialized as it is among the Orlanthi cults. Should this discussion of guilds be moved over to the Hrestoli and Rokari?
>Magic road heroquests have been mentioned in sources
>from way back - ISTR one mentioned in some of the
>house campaign write-ups in WF, lo these many years ago.
And actually, many of them could be constructed to fit the format of an already known "heroquest". You could have a Magic Road in Sartar that followed the path of Orlanth meets Elmal, and as a side effect (perhaps not always beneficial) transport you 100 miles west. But even if the only purpose is movement, these Roads are Heroquests, and the questors still have foes and tests to overcome. If they don't do it properly, they may not travel; might end up traveling somewhere other than where they intended; or might find themselves stranded on the Hero Plane, having to perform another (more dangerous) quest to return home. They are not to be treated lightly, IMO.
Stephen Martin
ilium_at_juno.com
- -----------------------------------------------The Book of Drastic Resolutions
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