This is what should have been inside the message I forwarded:
Mr. Tines:
>It would be possible - but rather stretching the
>envelope of what is urban (and the economic
>potential of only about 120 years) - to scatter a
>few score Mycenean-style citadels (as appropriated
>for Balazar) with a hundred odd folk providing
>logistic support to the palace to make up the
>14,000 urban population.
No, when I spoke of urbanisation I meant the seven walled cities of Sartar: Wilmskirk, Jonstown, Swenstown, Duck Point, Boldhome, Aldachur and Alone (in the sequence of founding or, in case of Aldachur, acquisition).
Boldhome is the capital, and not a tribal federation centre like all the others (except Duck Point). Boldhome is a very special case with its dwarfen architecture (the "pockets") and its "Councilic" mixture of races and tribes. IMO Sartar managed to import a lot of Holy Country specialists into his new capital to provide his principality with the lures of urban civilisation. Probably against the plans and wishes of his former employer, the Pharaoh.
Duckpoint never became a fully inhabited city, not even the minimum design Sartar built there. The place was a functional point for disembarking, with extensive services for travelling merchants, all in the protection of Sartar's walls, but never was a trading centre for the few surrounding Sartarite rurals.
Of the other cities, Aldachur is by far the oldest, a quite large city founded on a EWF site by the early Tarshite immigrants, probably as early as 1350. With the solar Vantaros tribe in charge, the more rigid laws of an urban society sit well with the Aldachuri.
Wilmskirk originally was the most important city in Sartar, the entry-point into the principality. With the troll (and Kitori human) blockade of the road to Karse, the development of the city was stifled. It remained in business as a stopping point on the routes south from Boldhome, though.
Jonstown's reputation as a city of learning has made it the largest of Sartar's hillfort foundations. The city prospered from the trade going through it to and from Boldhome as well.
Swenstown dominates the trade with Prax - what little trade there is. Its major importance is as the military and legal gathering place for the eastern Quivini tribes.
Alone was founded most recently, after 1580, by Terasarin, as a generous offer to the exiled Tarshites of Bagnot who would not join the savage Wintertop Exiles.
>Even then, I would consider the more likely
>style of citadel for the Orlanthi to be more
>like Iron Age hill forts (e.g. Maiden Castle).
I proposed "Iron Age" hill forts, oppida. It is not like the Sartarites had to develop the idea of cities - it was brought (back) to them from their old homeland, in Heortland. It makes no sense to compare these cities with Greek cities in their ancient homelands, rather use Greek colonies in the western Mediterranean as parallels, places where urban settlers mingle with absorbed natives.
>There is likely to be a significant change between
>Sartar in 1600 ST and (abortive rebellion in the
>middle aside) in 1625 due to Lunarization - and
>it might be possible to pump up the urban fraction
>by planting a number of Lunar colonia, though
>we have no real evidence of such.
The only major colonia we know about is Jomes Wulf's land in the former Maboder tribal lands, between the Cinsina and the Telmori. If it had an "urban center", that would have been little more than a fortified camp. It exists since 1608, and should have a size comparable to a minor Sartarite tribe.
>How far the occupation has made the transition of Boldhome
>from palace, other public/religious structures, and
>minimal logistic support (servants, associated
>cultivation), to a centre of specialised manufacture
>and service sectors of the economy in a generation
>of occupation, it's hard to tell. Faster than
>the example of Athens between 700BC and a couple
>of hundred years later at its zenith (though I
>likened Jonstown to Athens more on the Academy <==>
>Lankhor Mhy temple analogy).
Boldhome is the most artificial creation of a city in Sartar. Its ready dwarfen pockets surely encouraged a lot of younger children to start a new life in the city rather than toil for older brothers on steads they had little claim to. Since Sartar's influence brought less open conflict between the tribes, there were less casualties in intertribal wars which caused a certain population surplus ready to move into the cities, which held, after all, their tribal houses with ready kin.
>It's worth noting for a RW example that Charlemagne's
>capital at Aix had about 2-3000 citizens - under 1%
>the population of Byzantium at the same time.
Aix was one of several palatia of Karl, although his favourite one. Charlemagne still collected his food tax by traveling through his realm (even when he was not on a campaign against the Saxons, Awars, or the Italian cities). With no permanent court in place, 2000 to 3000 permanent inhabitants seem quite a lot.
>The former feels more like Sartar, the latter like any
>of the long established civilisations : the latter
>feels much more highly urbanised than the former.
Byzantium finds its reflections in the metropolis of Nochet. Places like the Karolingan palatia aren't easy to include in Glorantha, since there are no extant traditions of migratory courts. There might have been in pre-Ban Loskalm, or in the Dawn Age Heortling kingdoms...
>The depiction of Boldhome in the _Rough Guide_
>didn't manage to suspend my disbelief .
Boldhome is a fantasy city, with fantastic (though all too familiar) skyscaping architecture and an unnatural tolerance for fringe groups within the city. Much of its extraordinary nature was made possible only by the magic of its founder.
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