BC
AKA Droga IronBeard, Iron Dwarf, Openhanded Individualist, Engineer to
the Masters of Luck and Death..
-----Original Message----- From: owner-glorantha-digest_at_chaosium.com [SMTP:owner-glorantha-digest_at_chaosium.com] Sent: Monday, November 17, 1997 3:39 PM To: glorantha-digest_at_chaosium.com Subject: The Glorantha Digest V5 #228 The Glorantha Digest Monday, November 17 1997 Volume 05: Number 228
TABLE OF CONTENTS Lewis Jardine Truestone & Adamant
Tadaaki Kakegawa / Malion Re: Vormain
Peter Metcalfe various matters
Joerg Baumgartner Broos in Praxian Warfare
Joerg Baumgartner Re: Pamaltelan hsunchen, existance thereof
David Dunham Re: hsunchen; earth guardians
Hibbs, Philip Cheering Waves
Jane Williams OOP on the web, little old ladies.
Shannon Appel Re: OOP on the web, little old ladies. Pasanen Panu Malign earth and old farts D. Pearton Babs Gor protetresses Lee R. Insley Child Herders/Voriof RULES OF THE ROAD 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially not to add "Yeah, I agree" or "No, I disagree." Or be excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say "good show" please do. But don't include the whole message you praise. 2. Use an appropriate Subject line. 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a point-by-point basis. 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready to stand by it. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:22:32 +0000 From: Lewis Jardine <jardine_at_rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk> Subject: Truestone & Adamant In response to:concepts:
> > Admantium is to Truestone as gold is to gold ore; well, in
_Cults Of
> > Prax_ it says that the dwarves have a way of "refining"
Truestone into
> > Admantium so I figure that''s roughly the relationship.
Given that, I'd
> > figure that it has the properties of Truestone and then
some; possibly
> > weaker chaos beasts would die simply by touching an
admantium item.
>
Pasanen Panu wrote:
> Adamantium cancels magics totally when touched; at least
Griffin Island
> suggests so. Like superb non-enchanted iron. I'd say that
refining is
> a long-term process, equivalent in difficulty to HQ'ing.
Adamantium
> is so hard to get that I know of no Gloranthan hero who would
have
> an adamantium arrowtip or a piece of it.
That is only because the Mostali come to collect it as soon as they find out about it. When they come you have these choices: 1) Give them the adamant (& possibly be well rewarded). 2) Fight them and they will keep coming until they eventually kill you. 1) Run & keep running until they catch you... Thus, you are "bound" not to know of anyone with adamant as if you knew, then the Mostali would know and they would take it away. If anyone owns any of it they are either a superhero (Harrek's claws & Gbaji's claws...) or they are very quite about it.
> Killing chaos beasts is a property of item of Law, for
example
> truestone from Spike. When Law is processed, it is no longer
Law.
> I do not know what it is, though.
> The effect and logics propose Disorder.
>
I have to disagree here. I believe that you are confusing 2 similar but non-identical
Law (as opposed to Chaos) which can be a living thing (hence Truestone
is Fossilized Law).
Order (as opposed to Disorder) which is a stagnant non-living thing.
Chaos beasts are basically creatures of Entropy (Chaos & Disorder) so
that they are affected by the orderly nature of Truestone (& even more
so by Adamant). However, if you could have a non-Disorderly creature
of Chaos I would speculate that this would be unaffected by Truestone.
Of course I'm not sure if one of these exists, ideas are:
Wild Healer of the Rockwoods Some Lunars..? Cheers Lewis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:54:52 +0900 (JST) From: "Tadaaki Kakegawa / Malion" <yelmalio_at_za2.so-net.or.jp> Subject: Re: Vormain Thank you very much for coments on my work on Vormain. This is the co-work with my friend Utsumi and Kimura (they ran a campain on Vormain and I wrote down some of articles based on them with Kimura), so I know little about some part of the work. Refer to Stephen Martin's comments: >>gods mentioned in Gods of Glorantha, that is Telask the Warrior and >>Zaktirra the Wicked Sorcerer. Also, what little info we havein print
I know nothing what those gods is like. Where do they appear in GoG ?
Anyway, I think they should be Cruel Side of ShidoFuhai and ChiYn
TaiSin. Gods/Goddesses of Vormain have two side, Nigi (Peaceful Side)
and Ara (Cruel Side). Sometimes one god would be recognized as two
separate gods.
>>states that many of the Vormaini dieties are Celestial in nature, and it
High Gods are mostly recognized as Celestial gods, I think. VanSeiKiHi
is the Sun, ShidoFuhai should be the War Stars, etc. On the contrary, Low Gods are recognized as Earthly gods who didn't obey Sky Gods at first. >>Perhaps if Issaries, Inc. gets rolling, the Oceans Book project will >>begin again. I am told we can expect another progress report sometime >>soon, but I don't know exactly what "soon" means. I am looking forward to seeing another work on Vormain andEast Isles.
Regards,
-
- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Tadaaki Kakegawa AKA MALION e-mail:yelmalio_at_za2.so-net.or.jp
cxc06317_at_niftyserve.or.jp
-
- ------------------------------------------------------------------- P.S. If you have a chance, please go to see Anime-Movie "Mononoke Princess" directed by Mr. Miyazaki. That is my image onVormain.
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:58:43 PST From: "Peter Metcalfe" <metcalph_at_hotmail.com> Subject: various matters Hsunchen in Pamaltela: In addition to the already mentioed Basmoli. Spider-hsunchen are mentioned in the Troll Gods (Aranea tribe) as well as some insect hsunchen - mention is made IIRC of humans that heard the giant locusts of Tarien in the Gorakiki cult writeup). Argrath's Saga mentions the Bat People who fought Harrek when he set up his kingdom in Goan. I presume they're extinct after 1625 for obvious reasons... Nikk: >Yelmalio is a Sun God? But the the cult >venerates Yelm as the Sun, does it not? I can see Yelmalio believing >that the Sun is sacred, all powerful etc... but not that Yelmalio >*is* or directly derives power from it, which is what I'd class a Sun >Cult as being. Well what else do the Yelmalions worship? Their God is explicitly worshipped as a Sun God by the elves. Yelm OTOH is not seen solely as a Sun God by his Dara Happan worshippers. They maintain that the glowing orb in the sky is merely his lowest essense that can be comprehended by mortals (cf GRAY). The people of Sun County IMO would take this view and then equate Yelmalio as being the glowing orb. >Secondly, I had always assumed that the Elmali/Yelmalio schism has >occured centuries ago, if not millenia (in the case of Sandy, the >Elmali karked it in the first age), as oppossed to about 60years.
It is known Monrogh to have been a person living in Tarkalor's time and since he is the founder of the current _cult_ (as opposed to the aeons old _worship_ of Yelmalio or Elmal), the schism occured then. Prior to then, there was no schism as only elves worshipped Yelmalio and Orlanthi Elmal and never the twain shall met. In this case, Sandy is not authoritative but merely indulging in the perfectly reasonable habit of changing an aspect of the published gloranthan corpus to something he is happy with. Lastly there is no direct evidence for Elmal to have karked it. It was introduced by the Lunars to South Peloria and has replaced AFAIK the Elmali population there (save for the land of Vanch). As far as we know there are still Elmali in Ralios and Dragon Pass. - --Peter Metcalfe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 97 18:56 MET From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_toppoint.de> Subject: Broos in Praxian Warfare The old chestnut again. "Yeah, there were broos at Moonbroth [or pick any other conflict involving broos]. But we did _not_ ally them. We just herded them at lance length into the enemy, and a fine mess they made with the chaos-buggering Lunars [replace by choice of arch-enemy here]. Tell you what, the broos didn't really seem to mind, though..." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 97 18:56 MET From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_toppoint.de> Subject: Re: Pamaltelan hsunchen, existance thereof David Dunham asked about Pamaltelan hsunchen >Are there any hsunchen folk on the continent of Pamaltela? Sandy Petersen >mentioned that there are were-jackals, but that they're nothsunchen.
The God Learners classified the Bat People of Laskal and an extinct
"Basmoli" people in Tarien as Hsunchen. I seem to recall some Diroti Sofali
Hsunchen off Maslo as well. I can't say whether they were right, though -
they classified many other beings and cultures as they saw fit rather than
as they were, after all.
>I'm inclined to believe that there aren't any (Martin Crim's article saying
>there are tiger hsunchen to the contrary).
I am more disinclined to believe in Pamaltelan tigers than Pamaltelan
Hsunchen in general...
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:12:44 -0800 From: David Dunham <dunham_at_pensee.com> Subject: Re: hsunchen; earth guardians I asked, "Are there any Hsunchen in Pameltela?" and "LostSky"answered
> There are definately Basmoli, who came from there in the first
place - and
> ... The Heroes Hykim cult write-up says there arer many
Hsunchen tribes
I admit to forgetting about the Basmoli, but I haven't really seen much
evidence that they exist in present-day Pamaltela. (Of course, if they live
in Tarien, that could explain it, though one unpublished source doesn't
mention them.)
I think I missed Pamaltelan hsunchen because they're not mentioned in the
Pamaltelan sources, only elsewhere.
Mr Tines defended his bored temple guardians. Mr Tines is clearly not a
Seattle Farmer -- in our games, you'd be insane if you took a productive
member of society and made them unproductive (really, temples don't get
attacked very often, and that assumes you have a temple in the first place,
which is also something of a luxury). You'd much rather support Granny, who
has useful knowledge, than an unruly teenager.
Of course, prosperous Esrolia might be a bit different, but I don't think
that's really the area under discussion. And even there, you'd have
dedicated guards, not kids you somehow managed to get to swear their lives
[donate POW] to taking arbitrary vengeance.
And my complaints evaporate if they're not initiates, because then it's not
a permanent thing. Making someone carry a heavy axe for a week is a
reasonable punishment. Making them become a devotee of a bloody goddess is
not, because that lasts a lifetime.
David Dunham <mailto:dunham_at_pensee.com> Glorantha/RQ page: <http://www.pensee.com/dunham/glorantha.html> Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:46:21 -0000 From: "Hibbs, Philip" <philip.hibbs_at_tnt.co.uk> Subject: Cheering Waves >Wizened river mystics may read the upstreams jumping of waves >as an omen, and especially read how and when the waves 'die', i.e. >get subsumed into the downstream flow. >I like it. It's a good example of the ubiquitous but largely >useless magic of Glorantha. >Tanks, Phillip. Thanks yourself, this started off as a brief mention in my 'surreal vs real' game post, and it was your prompting that got me thinking about it, and actually writing a spell! I might even use it in a game, now that we have a cultural setting for it! http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/phibbs +--------------+ | Philip Hibbs +---------------------------------------------+ | What immortal hand or eye dare frame thy perfect symmetry? | +------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:36:39 +0000 From: "Jane Williams" <jane_at_williams.nildram.co.uk> Subject: OOP on the web, little old ladies. Steve said, inter alia:it?
> With the Gloranthan Web Page up and running, and a _lot_ of
background
> material on it, hopefully the new game will be able to avoid
> reprinting a lot of this material, since it will be available
to
> everyone on the Web Page.
Um, Steve. That web page is a wonderful resource, true. But - believe it or not - there are still people with no web access out there. Even some who have email, but can't get at the Web. I seem to remember arguing with some guy or other a while back, who had email but couldn't be bothered to get web access too - come to think of it, that was you, wasn't
I hope the "new game" *will* contain a lot of this stuff, because for the
majority of the gaming world that's the only way they're ever going to
see it. And without the background, Glorantha as a setting is unplayable.
On the subject of "useless" elders, might I suggest that they do a lot of
the minding of small infants? Also the spinning, weaving, cooking, and
other less physically demanding occupations? (I'm sure there are some
"male-role" tasks as well, but they escape me for the moment).
If an eight-year-old can be useful, I would have thought an eighty-year-old could perform at least the same tasks. Jane Williams jane_at_williams.nildram.co.uk http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~janewill/gloranth/index.shtml ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:41:14 -0800 From: Shannon Appel <appel_at_chaosium.com> Subject: Re: OOP on the web, little old ladies. >I hope the "new game" *will* contain a lot of this stuff, because for the >majority of the gaming world that's the only way they're ever going to >see it. And without the background, Glorantha as a setting isunplayable.
Be assured, the new game will have all the background that's needed
for play. The web page should be a nice bonus for any players, but not
in any way necessary.
Shannon
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:28:01 +0200 (EET) From: Pasanen Panu <passo_at_students.cc.tut.fi> Subject: Malign earth and old fartsagain.
> malign earth: infertility, impotence, sending spirits of the
wild against
> the crops of one's foes (in a sort of "blast earth"), etc.
We've used
> rituals, plant lore, and conventional spells to enact all
these.
> Basically, I just think of the effect we want to achieve, find
a myth that
> produces the effect, and reinact it. Of course, sometimes you
get results
> you didn't expect...
The description Theya gave was far more scary. Unless, very powerful magic was used, DI- like. Having Second Mouth cast on defiler's very own wife sounds like a nasty one. So does dying from starvation with whole family. And the rats. Mythos rides
> there are scary old women ans wise old men. There are also
scary old men
> and wise old women.
The wise old men have, in my campaigns, often been old buggers, who
instead of advising, constantly complain about todays youth and moan about their aching back and sore tooth (the last one, yes). These old wise men are then asked to educate the unruly kids (the to-be-adventurers?-) with stories about the past. Yippee, I'd say. Others are playing outside, why do we have to listen to that old fart?-) Panu Pasanen. (No offence meant to old farts out there!-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:30:35 -0800 (PST) From: "D. Pearton" <pearton_at_u.washington.edu> Subject: Babs Gor protetresses Mr. Tinesworld.
> Pam Carlson
> > Does every clan Ernalda shrine need a guard? Just who is
going to defile
> it
> > - - certainly not the clan members!
>
> Mundane raiders, be they from feuding clan, or
> something in a different ecological niche like
> trolls; plus the ritual enemies at the various
> ceremonies throughout the year.
>
> > Are we talking about an agrarian society here? Do Orlanthi
really have
> the
> > luxury to allow their teenagers to lounge about aimlessly
with weapons?
> I
>
> One (1) person per shrine, stuck with what is in effect
> punishment detail, multiplied by however-many clans.
> Not whole gangs of disaffected inner city youths per steading.
>
> Am I honestly that unclear in my writing?
I'm sorry, but I just do not believe that this holds together. A single teenage girl, sent on a punishment duty, is going to guard the shrine against trolls and raiders? Much more likely that this is the role primarily of the clan huscarls - that is largely what their role is anyway. Even the carls defend the clan when necessary. I am quite willing to accept that as a punishment some poor rebellious girl might be cast as Babs during a religious ceremony, but I don't believe that this requires anything more than a normal Ernaldan initiation. Come to think of it that would be a fairly nasty threat - what normal young guy would associate with the poor girl once it became known that she was "Babeester Gor". Cheers, Dave Disclaimer: These are not neccesarily the views of the rest of the Seattle Farmers Collective (although they might be close, and, as Pam says, we do share beer - homemade at that!). pearton_at_u.washington.edu +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Down he sank in a chair-ran his hands through his hair- + And chanted in mimsiest tones + Words whose utter inanity proved his insanity, + While he rattled a couple of bones. + + "The Hunting of the Snark" Lewis Carroll + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:55:40 -0500 From: "Lee R. Insley" <maelstrom_at_usa.net> Subject: Child Herders/Voriof Nick Brooke: >Nothing. But the job of watching sheep is commonly left to small >boys, who may or may not cry "Wolf!" If the job's done by kids, the >related rituals, myths and folklore will equate the two. Mature >Sartarites aren't shepherds: they leave that to their children and >nephews and younger cousins, and get on with the smallholding and >ploughing and weapontaking and all the other fun of everyday life. >They still own sheep -- of course! -- they just leave them to the >kids to look after on a day-to-day basis. > Interesting view. I had thought that herding would have been an adult profession and that there would be adult herders in the clan along with adult farmers. This is the way I had always invisioned the
Having children do this kind of duty makes some sense. Having the young
boys chase away or kill wild animals who try to attack the livestock would
seem to be good practice for developing skills useful in warfare (courage,
weapon skills, etc) surely important latter in life. The main problem,
however, is entrusting the young boys with being the first line of defense
against raiders from other clans. I assume in this case, the boys jobs
would be to corral the herds into a safe area and call upon the men of the
clan to counter-attack, and any spells gained through Voriof would reflect
this.
Now, how does the worship of Voriof play into all of this? Can children be
initiates of gods (in order to access the spirit and divine spells of
Voriof), or are they more on the level of lay-members? The Runequest rules
seem to indicate that someone becomes an initiate at adulthood. Perhaps
Voria and Voriof are gods that children can become initiates of or are
automatically initiates of after proper birth rituals? For now, I am
assuming that Voriof is generally worshipped as a sub-cult of some larger
religion, and access to spells gained from Voriof is by adult worship
through this sub-cult. Any ideas on how children worship gods to gain
access to spirit and divine spells (which in this case would be useful in
tending/defending the herd animals)?
Finally, I am assuming that adult initiates of Voriof are rare, and rune
lords are even rarer. My thinking is that an adult initiate of Voriof is
either also an initiate of some larger cult (or worships Voriof as a
sub-cult of a larger cult) or is someone who is immature and refuses to
become part of the adult community (by becoming part of a more adult cult
such as Orlanth). These type of initiates/rune lords would probably never
get married (who would want to marry them) and may even be social outcasts
from their own clans. Immaturity, practical jokes, frolicking, playfulness, and even a touch of innocence and naivety would mark such an individual. ------------------------------ End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #228 *********************************** WWW at http://rider.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html ------------------------------
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #229
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