A pertinent question is here... what is Magic? Magic, as defined by it's
Gloranthanrunic definition, is communication between the otherworld and the mundane
plane.
Chaos, according to works such as Cults of Terror/Lords of Terror and others,
"Destroys all possibiltiies of individuality and unity." Chaos, for Gloranthans,
is literally the death of the world (and for the follower of Draconic Mysteries, or
the Illuminant, it's birth as well.) Any magic that is Chaotic or Chaotically aspected
can only serve the forms and purposes of Chaos, which is the destruction of
existence and transformation of it into non-existence... Chaos magic
(The bringing forth of Chaos from the otherworld into the mundane Gloranthan Reality)
can only bring forth that end, ultimately. Tap in it's various forms is the best
example,
but any Chaos Rune Spell meets that end.
> >The physical matter of Glorantha was orriginaly created from chaos, but it
> >was changed fundamentaly by that process - it isn't chaos anymore and
> >confusing chaos with magic is unhelpfull.
>
> I am not saying that magic is chaos. Rather that Magic is the tool that is
> used to allow Chaos to interact with the world. The effect of chaos is
> change, creativity, destruction... sounds like general headings for most
> spells doesn't it.
>
> In addition we find that some of the Gods themselves carry the Chaos rune;
> Ragnaglar and Seseine as examples.
>
These are Chaos Gods, remember. Seseine and Ragnaglar are partially outsideof Creation, as most Chaos gods are.
> >. Magic cannot exist in the presence of that
> >which cannot be connected to, bound with or influenced.
>
> If this were the case then these Gods would not exist and the chaos rune
> could not be tied to anything. Bagog, Krjalk and most of the "Terror" cults
> would wonder why all their Divine Magic has dried up and all of there
> heroes who have attained Rune affinity would be unable to work magic..
>
Remember, in RQ2, Magic is a condition rune, one of the rare few of it'stype (the only other condition runes are Infinity and Mastery.) Magic, as a Rune, is more of a modifier than anything else, implying mundane world/ otherworld interacion. In the case of the Chaos Gods, think of the the Magic rune as the channel through which their powers flow into the mundane world (the same as how the runic powers of other Gods function.) While not all deities possess the Magic Rune as one of their primary attributes (the only ones that I know of are Glorantha, mother of the Cosmos, and the Invisible God... Who I feel are one and the same being! I'll save that for a later post,. though), all deities use the Magic rune as a function of being a god and interacting with the world of Time and their mortal followers.
> So to the original question is law the antithesis of Chaos.
> No. in fact the Law rune may supecede chaos. If Chaos can be acted upon
> and manipulated then there must be some causal force which says how this
> may be done. Peter metcalf says that the Law rune is simply the laws of the
> universe.
> I think that we might look at stasis as being the antithesis of chaos.
> Where Chaos represents change and diversity, Stasis represents stability
> and order.
This is one of my sore points... Chaos, in Glorantha, is not MoorcockChaos, as delineated in his Stormbringer novels. Chaos is NOT change and diversity... It's primal infinity and void, from which all creation comes, and which contains infinite possibilities. Change, in Glorantha, is a function of the Change/Mobility rune, which represents changes in ideas, locations, cultures, opinions and the world which is represented by cults such as Orlanth, Issaries and the like. Change represents not only travel (Mastakos), but also social mobility, change and development in ideas, and changes in one's life that make sense and are related to the context of one's own surroundings. Chaos, on the other hand, is an infinity that is unhindered by logic. This can explain the hatred many Chaos creatures have for the world... Glorantha's laws force them into weak, pitiful, finite manifestations, bound by the laws of Time. If Time and the world were destroyed by Chaos, then Chaos creatures woud become *all things*. But, in becoming infinity, they'd effectively become nothing. To Lawful creatures, this is the Soul Death, while to Chaotics, it's the ultimate liberation and transcendence to Godhead. Again, only the Draconics, Illuminants and Lunars understand both sides of this conundrum.
> So try this on for size. The stasis Rune is Mostali in origin. Mostali as
> the first born have the strongest memories of Chaos and ally themselves
> with its antithesis, Stasis.
Actually, the Mostali were created by the World Machine, by a combinationof the Stasis, Earth and Man runes, to service the world machine. The 'Elder' races aren't actually older than mankind, but are called Elder because their histories and cultures have unbroken continuity before the darkness, while human kingdoms and cultures have risen, fallen and risen in new forms. At least the Uz, Dragonewts and Aldryami are as old as the Mostali, and have memories just as strong of Chaos.
Another point - Runically, at least according to the god learners, the opposite Power to Stasis is not Chaos, but Mobility/Change.
> Mostali take truestone which was created by Mostal to hold creation
> together(the spike). It does this because trustone is rich with Stasis and
> resists the effect of Chaos.
>
Krarsht disproves this. Krarsht uses Stasis to make the world malfunction,through corruption and greed, just as much as Pocharngo uses Change/Mobility to do the same thing. Stasis is no more resistant to Chaos than Change is!
> Now, the Mostali take this truestone which already has pretty heavy
> cultural significance and they place there strongest magics upon it,
> reforging it and making it purer. The end result is Admantium which is
> focused Stasis.
>
> Magic will not work on the Admantium because magic invokes (indirectly) the
> power of chaos and in this case the Admantium is a much stronger because it
> has a direct link to (may in fact be a part of..) the Stasis Rune.
>
> Similarily magic worked in the vincinity of Admantium will be affected as
> though the very world around them is resisting the results of the spell
>
> Some may argue that motion and stasis are opposites but remember that the
> paired runes are a God learner construct and should be suspect...
> I think that Motion and stasis merely dislike each other in a rather vague
> unfocused way. Stasis and Chaos on the other hand are like matter and
> anti-matter if you bring them together in their pure form they both cease
> to exist. During the Great Darkness "Life met anti-life and everything
> imploded into nothingness"
>
The published sources disagree with you. Even non-God Learner sourcesgeneraly agree that Chaos is not 'Anti-Stasis', but 'Anti-Life', life representing the whole of the Cosmos as opposed to the runic power. Sometimes Greg uses the term Life to represent existence, and all the Runic powers of the world, and 'Anti-Life' (represented by Kajaboor world-eater) to represent Chaos, the howling void which desires to consume the world.
> Finally.
>
> >Magic is what makes Glorantha what it is. Everything in Glorantha that
> >isn't either pure Chaos, or pure Law, is magical.
>
> Say Rather:
> Everything which isn't pure Chaos or Pure Stasis is magical. Because Magic
> is the vessel used by Law to express how Chaos and Magic may be combined.
> Everything in Glorantha is an orderly expression of Chaos. People start as
> babies and get old. This is Change, but a very
> smooth and orderly form thereof. Trees change with the seasons, so do the
> woodfolk. Everwhere in Glorantha there is the smooth orderly expression of
> controlled Chaos.
I agree 100% here, except in your use of the term Stasis. I'd substitute 'Law' or'Life'. Very Illuminated!
> During the Great Darkness, raw uncontrolled Chaos came into Glorantha.
> Through the vessel Wakboth it entered the world unchecked by Law.The Life
> of Glorantha allied themselves with Law to regain control of Chaos and
> eject it from Glorantha. Some among those who fought were better able to
> express Law and were more effective in the Battle. Eater of Chaos the Troll
> was able to defeat chaos by consuming it and making it subject to the most
> powerful Law of Uz, Digestion. Once Chaos has been made subject to Law
> again then Chaos becomes controllable.
>
> The end result of the war. law wins and Chaos is controlled. But Chaos has
> strengthened its position. How do we know this? Because people age faster,
> seasons turn faster...
I disagree. Change is good. But then, I'm strongly Orlanthi!
> .
>
> Faster change = stronger Chaos.
>
Nopers, faster Change=Stronger Law, Life! Witness Yelm's stagnant rule,and the need for Orlanth's forcing him to change and acknowledge his own error. Witness Orlanth's change through the acknowledgement of his own (Orlanth's) crime! While still performing a service to the world, and saving it from stagant disintegration (perhaps a slow death and eventual invasion from Chaos later, as opposed to the disastrous war he instigated), he also committed a heinous crime he had to admit to, and make recompense for. Change supports law, Stasis/Stagnation brings forth Chaos, by all going forth into the unchanging, static, howling void of unbeing. The Red Goddess brought forth change, forcing the world to deal with her, causing it pain, but bringing forth knowledge and new insights, forcing it to become wiser. She made Orlanth change, via his servant Argrath, by calling forth old Dragon powers and insights similar to those offered by the Red Goddess, yet fundamentally different. As the unchanging GodTime and the shifting void of Chaos interact, Life and Time are made.
> Bill Thompson.
Paraphrasing and summing up...
Bill, you seem to have a more Moorcockian ideal of Law, in Glorantha, meaning Unchange, or Stasis. In this, I disagree with you. I personally feel that discerning the difference between Law and Chaos vis a vis Change/Mobility and Stasis is a toughie for most Gloranthan fans. However, here are my thoughts.
Law is the world, literally, and is the synthesis of it's component powers. Law is Sanity, the compreghensible world of Glorantha, and is best described by Logical Sorcery in this sense. In this way, the insights of the God Learners made sense, as they saw the world as a series of Elements, Powers, Conditions and Forms which interacted and made up the world we know (Glorantha) today. Law differs from Stasis in two ways... One, it includes provision for orderly Change (the change of seasons, movement from one local to another, ageing, even changes in cultures and philosophy, represented by history.) Stasis, on the other hand, represents unchanging principles in the world which remain constant, such as the solidity of Stone, mathematics, and laws which are used to govern men. Secondly, Law is a form rune, like Chaos is, while Stasis is one of the powers.
Law is also the Immortal world of the GodTime. By definition, the GodTime and the beings within it can not change, as they form the platonic foundation of the world. If you muck around with the GodTime, you can destroy the universe. This, IMO, is the ultimate reason why Glorantha as a world destroyed the God Learners. In their foolish manipulations of Myth they almost destroyed the world, being just as dangerous as Gbaji was to the world within Time. In their own way, the GL's were just as much agents of Chaos as the armies of Wakboth were during the GodTime.
As for the GL's being suspect... Has any Gloranthan culture come up with a better
system that can be applied world wide? Despite the abuses of the God Learners,
their runic system and philosophies are now the Lingua Franca for Gloranthan mystics
and magicians. One can admire and use Latin while hating the Roman Empire. :)
The GL's were empirical scientists, and despite whatever else you may feel about them
they were experts at observing phenomena impartially... Thus, their insights into other
cultures aren't necessarily always suspect (indeed, their powers could not have been
achieved if they were totally overwhelmed by their biases.)Only in their later period
did
they lose respect for the world and almost destroy it.
In Lord of Terror, in a section on the Dragon Creation Myth, Chaos is defined as
being everything that is not Law. Chaos is the womb and grave of creation for
Glorantha, the beginning and end of everything. To make it a mere opposite of Stasis
robs Chaos in Glorantha of it's grandeur, glory and horror. Chaos is insanity, the
insanity that makes creation possible and can destroy the world. Draconics and
Illuminates, especially Lunars, understand this, and attempt to harness this Glorious
aspect of Chaos. Existence, or Time, requires Chaos just as much as the Law of
GodTime, and the Spider Arachne Solara understood this as the Compromise was
forged (all you non-compromise believers, insert your myths here. ;) Existence/Time
is a buffer between the howling void of Chaos and the Immortal Law of GodTime. It's
the only way the GodTime can exist, as it would be destroyed (indeed, was, in the I
fought/
We Won, before being created anew by the mortal creatures of the world) by direct
exposure to the void. IMO, Interactions of any kind, but especially between
Chaos, Time, and GodTime are what makes magic possible in Glorantha.
Well, it's long and spammy, but I hoped I was able to make my ideas clear.
Chris Bell
mailto:remster_at_interport.net
Powered by hypermail