Not analogous -- we have definite and distinct myths with Orlanth dealing with dragons, both friendly and enemy. This does not appear in the _cult_ write-up.
Nowehere is there any myth anywhere which has Yelmalio dealing with dragons.
Just because the EWF dealt with dragon magic, doesn't mean that Yelmalio has draconic connections. I see no reason to suppose this -- other EWF remnants we know about (Tusk Riders, Delecti, the Sisters of Mercy, the Half-Beasts) have absolutely no draconic connections either.
>4) Do you think that the EWF would seriously counternance
>a disciplined military force within its own borders (that
>is where the Templars came from) without some sort of
>draconization to ensure loyalty?
Sure, why not? Is every Dara Happan unit sun worshiping? Is every one of Argrath's units an Orlanthi clan? Do the Praxians not use the Men-and-a-Half, Basmoli Berserkers, and Baboons as allies sometimes (though not to be trusted, I agree), even though they are not Praxians in the Waha sense?
Every imperial army in history has had foreigner and non-standard units. And many of them were the best, most trusted, and most effective units. Probably _because_ they were not standard rank and file.
>We have no evidence of
>any other sort of non-draconized cult among humans within
>the EWF. The cult of Yelm for instance was suppressed in
>favour of the Dragon Sun.
Oh, so you don't think anybody in all of the EWF area worshiped any of the old gods in the old forms? Not a single person worshiped Ernalda any more, or Shargash, or Lokarnos, or Issaries, or Lhankor Mhy, or Entekos, or ...
>5) The surviving remants of the EWF life that we indicates
>that their magic had a strong emphasis of speaking draconic.
See above -- we know of more non-draconic remnants of the EWF, and know more about them.
>The empire itself was destroyed when the Inhuman King caused
>Auld Wyrmish to be forgot for auld lang syne.
And don't forget the pillaging trolls, and Three Generations of War in Saird.
>Therefore it seems to me that the act of speaking Auld Wyrmish was an
>_integral_ part of the EWF religion.
No, speaking Auld Wyrmish was an integral part of the draconic magics. As with worship of the Red Goddess in the Lunar Empire today (1-2% of population, all of whom are by definition the rare illuminates), I think the actual users of draconic magic in the EWF was a very small, but powerful, minority. With strange magic, I don't have to speak Auld Wyrmish, or use dragon magic, to give my magic points and POW to support the Great Dragon.
I have no interest in a Flame War here -- I am trying to suggest alternate possibilities to a theory I disagree with. I am happy to agree to disagree, or to take the debate to private email.
>Lastly, as a meta-issue, could you stop resorting to holy
>pronouncements on whether something is in the Canonical
>Corpus of Greg's Writings to shoot down any idea that you
>don't like? It gets a bit tiresome considering that on the
>other hand, you dismiss the same writings if it contains
>something that you don't like by alleging it belongs to the
>Monomythic Period of Greg so it can't possibly be true.
A valid complaint, but I am doing no more than anyone does with the published materials, using or denying them based on their needs at the time.
And where in this whole discussion did I refer to unpublished material?
Nick Brooke
>Stephen's old essay on the Elmal/Yelmalio schism, while unsatisfy-
>ing to many, does at least acknowledge the role of the EWF in the
>foundation of the Praxian Sun Dome Temple. Sad that this has been
>forgotten since.
As I am trying to point out, EWF connection /= draconic connection, not automatically. The EWF is a _political_ organization as well as a magical one. Not 100% of its actions in support of the populace will be magical in nature or origin.
Michael Raaterova
>Are the broos in Prax predominantly goat-like? I think not.
I believe Nomad Gods called them Goatking when it first came out.
>So, the orlanthi that do worry about eating goat are those that take
their
>religion seriously, i.e. the (wannabe) lords and priests. Even if the
>connection between goats and broos is merely folklore, it would still be
a
>formative belief in that culture. But most people tend *not* to follow
>every stricture and taboo of a religion. Thus, quite a few orlanthi (and
>most orlanthings) would eat goat, but they wouldn't serve goatmeat to
the
>Storm Voice.
I could accept this in some clans. In others, no goats at all. In others, such as in Southern Peloria where goats are common and commonly eaten, they might not even be aware of the tabu.
>>Dogs is a cultural thing, IMO, not a Darkness thing.
>?
To clarify, I believe the bias against dogs stems from History, not from the Great Darkness era. Thus, I think it has less of a mythical explanation, and more of a "this is just how it happened" reasoning. IMO, of course.
>Yinkin is, as Stephen says, Orlanth's brother. So how come the
orlanthings
>honour Yinkin by enslaving him?
In what way is he enslaved? The cats are free to come and go, but they can also be trained to guard the stead and herd.
>Assuming that alynxes aren't ubiquitous, what steads are graced by the
>presence of a sacred shadowcat? Surely it's the steads of the likes of
>Storm Voices and Wind Swords, who are worthy enough. Most cottars >would
simply be too unworthy to be graced by an alynx and they know it;
>alynxes are for people with status. So cottars keep dogs in stead.
Cottars >who keep dogs don't reject Yinkin; it's Yinkin who rejects them.
I was exaggerating -- but if I kept dogs, do you think any wild alynxes would come along? And I deny that it takes an allied spirit alynx to be trained -- does a dog have to be an allied spirit to be trained?
I think alynxes are very common, as common as dogs or cats are in our society. Certainly they are not just for Rune Lords and Storm Voices.
>Taking it a bit further, i'd say that an alynx chooses a specific person
to
>be its companion. I doubt that an alynx would choose to bond with a
lowly
>shepherd.
So now a dumb animal is going to choose who to bond with on the basis of their social status? And Orlanth won't send a sacred and mysterious beast to be the aid of a lowly, pious, hard-working cottar? They all go to the vain and boastful Wind Lords?
How boring.
Stephen Martin
ilium_at_juno.com
- -----------------------------------------------The Book of Drastic Resolutions
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