Yelmalio again

From: peter metcalfe <>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:42:06 +1300 (NZDT)

Stephen Martin:

Me>>3) An analogous example of an EWFied cult is the cult of
>>Orlanth Dragonfriend. Nowadays there is no hint of Orlanth
>>having a draconic connection in the current cult but that
>>does not mean it never was.

>Not analogous -- we have definite and distinct myths with Orlanth
>dealing with dragons, both friendly and enemy. This does not appear
>in the _cult_ write-up. Nowehere is there any myth anywhere which
>has Yelmalio dealing with dragons.

  1. What did I say about refraining from making holy pronouncements about whether something is in Greg's works or not? You are doing it right above.
  2. Oh course I bloody know that there is nothing published or unpublished about the connection between the Sun Dome Temple and Dragons. I am making an _hypothesis_ to explain the known facts, duh.
  3. We have no myths of Yelmalio dealing with Dragons because there are no dragons in Sun County. In Dragon Pass, I would expect that there would be.

>Just because the EWF dealt with dragon magic, doesn't mean that Yelmalio
>has draconic connections. I see no reason to suppose this -- other EWF
>remnants we know about (Tusk Riders, Delecti, the Sisters of Mercy, the
>Half-Beasts) have absolutely no draconic connections either.

No draconic connections that _you_ are aware of. Could you please drop these categorical denials since everytime that you've made them, it's become apparent that you've forgotten something which makes them at least possible.

The remants appear non-draconic today because any draconic aspects they once have had have been _removed_ - like Orlanth worship. Furthermore there has been very little published or unpublished about any links these remants have had with the EWF.

Take for example the Half-Beasts and Delecti. Delecti is interested in researching the secrets of life and death. The remakers have used the cutter to make the pain centaurs. What is the draconic equivalent of such? Why, the Utuma.

Me>>4) Do you think that the EWF would seriously counternance
>>a disciplined military force within its own borders (that
>>is where the Templars came from) without some sort of
>>draconization to ensure loyalty?

>Sure, why not? Is every Dara Happan unit sun worshiping? Is every
>one of Argrath's units an Orlanthi clan? Do the Praxians not use the
>Men-and-a-Half, Basmoli Berserkers, and Baboons as allies sometimes
>(though not to be trusted, I agree), even though they are not Praxians in
>the Waha sense?

Every Dara Happan military unit at least acknowleges the Emperor of Dara Happa to be its sovereign head. Furthermore we are talking about the military organisation of a highly organized _civilized_ nation, not Praxians. The Templars came from Dragon Pass, the heartland of the EWF, where the draconic philosophy would be strongest. To suggest that the EWF did not draconize units within this region is like suggesting that the USSR allowed selected units of its army to choose any faith they wanted including Tsarist Orthodoxy or National Socialism.

>Every imperial army in history has had foreigner and non-standard
>units. And many of them were the best, most trusted, and most
>effective units. Probably _because_ they were not standard rank
>and file.

Note most of these effective non-standard units were more than feverent supporters of the rulers and their ideology than the standard rank and file.

>>We have no evidence of
>>any other sort of non-draconized cult among humans within
>>the EWF. The cult of Yelm for instance was suppressed in
>>favour of the Dragon Sun.

>Oh, so you don't think anybody in all of the EWF area worshiped any of
>the old gods in the old forms? Not a single person worshiped Ernalda any
>more, or Shargash, or Lokarnos, or Issaries, or Lhankor Mhy, or Entekos,
>or ...

Duh^2. I'm talking about the organized cults within the EWF rather than the personal faith of the hoi polloi. In any case, there would have been similar draconized cults for any of the gods that you mentioned in the cities. The aim is to get people to start thinking draconically which will feedback into the leaders' magical powerbase and bring the awakening of the Grand Dragon even closer.

Me>>Therefore it seems to me that the act of speaking Auld Wyrmish was an
>>_integral_ part of the EWF religion.

>No, speaking Auld Wyrmish was an integral part of the draconic magics.

Which is what I _said_.

>with worship of the Red Goddess in the Lunar Empire today (1-2% of
>population, all of whom are by definition the rare illuminates), I think
>the actual users of draconic magic in the EWF was a very small, but
>powerful, minority. With strange magic, I don't have to speak Auld
>Wyrmish, or use dragon magic, to give my magic points and POW to support
>the Great Dragon.

The issue is not whether the masses speak Auld Wyrmish but whether the professional military (among which I include the Sun Dome Templars) do. The mention of the statistics for the illuminates omits the fact that an larger (albeit unknown) proportion of the Lunar Empire have heard at least one nysalor riddle or been philosophically harassed by a Socratic Thinker or had a Lunar Examiner give a lecture on the finer dialectics of illumination.

Forcing organized cults to conduct their services in Auld Wyrmish confers the benefit of increasing the knowlege of spoken Auld Wyrmish and reduces the fear of draconism. It is analogous to Roman Catholicism's use of Latin in masses pre-Vatican II, or Islam's use of Arabic.

>As I am trying to point out, EWF connection /= draconic connection, not
>automatically. The EWF is a _political_ organization as well as a magical
>one. Not 100% of its actions in support of the populace will be magical
>in nature or origin.

And the aims of the EWF is the propogation of its faith which would awaken the Grand Dragon. We are told that the entire population of Peloria was divided up into five cults to be the intellect of the Grand Dragon. Given such grandiose schemes, why the EWF would not attempt to draconize its own military units?

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