Actually, I waited for three or four. The server must have queued all messages and spit them out at once (though in no particular order). If you look at the dates in my messages, some of them are up to four days old. It won't happen again, I hope.
>Well the Rhino and the Bison riders would probably eat the
>Templars for breakfast in a head on charge. The Sable riders
>would gulp loudly and switch to javelins and crap bows to
>skirmish for a short while before retreating a long way away.
>The High Llamas will probably perish in a head on charge
>whereas the Impalas will just spump the Templars full of
>arrows from a distance - sooner or later an arrow will get
>lucky.
Of course, that is why the Templars use skirmishers. If the cavalry keeps running up and firing arrows/javelins, the skirmishers fire back (probably with better accuracy as well).
Nick:
>> I would think the Yelmalions would be used by more people than just
>> the nomads. The Lunar empire could use them as could the city of
>> Pavis at various times in history.
>
>But the Lunars only came to Prax in 1610 -- that's five to ten years
>ago in most games' timelines -- while the city of Pavis was occupied
>by Trolls for most of the Third Age. Any examination of why the Sun
>Dome Templars came to be the way they are *today* has to take their
>recent history into account. And remember the exceedingly dodgy names
>of several Counts in the Light List... looks like Nomad involvement
>for sure!
Sandy:
> During most of the Sun Dome's history there hasn't been anyone
>around but the nomads to hire them. The Lunars don't use them much
>because they have their own military units stationed in Prax. Certainly
>the city of Pavis & the Sun Domers are natural allies.
>
Jeff:
>Finally - remember, realistically there are approximately 800 templars and
>about 1,000 militia levies in Sun County, with maybe 50-60 years of
>institutional history (mainly defending the County against nomads). We
>aren't talking Sparta, Athens or even the Swiss. More like a outpost
>colony of Greeks in Bactria surrounded by hostile nomads.
I wasn't implying that the nomads aren't a major source for the hiring of the Sun Domers, just indicating that I believe there are others as well. I would think the Lunars would hire the Sun County militia units on occation to strengthen their own forces as/if needed (why waist perfectly good Lunar citizens - and by all indications the Sun County militia is the elite hoplite force in the world). There is ano reason to assume that the Lunars do not use mercenaries from time to time IMO (especially if they want to be a bit sneaky and secretly hire the mercenaries where the mercs don't even know who really hired them, or for what specific agenda). This being the case even prior to their arrival in Prax in 1610. They certainly were a presence in the surrounding areas even before the battle of Moonbroth. I wouldn't think that all of a sudden the Templars decide to ally themselves with the Lunars. There must have been some contact before 1610.
Is there any reason to think that people from as far away as Sartar, Tarsh, etc would not seek to employ the Sun County mercenaries? I am not sure why you are limiting their employment opportunities to just Prax. I would assume that the mercenary is someone who is in it for the pay/loot and not concerned about being home for the harvest or keeping too many family ties, so length of service and distance from home shouldn't be too much of an issue. I guess it depends on how you view who are the mercenaries. If they are the actual Templars of the Sun Dome only - then I agree that the mercs will not travel far. If you view them as bands operating somewhat independently and not under the direct control of the Sun Dome Temple, then I think seeing the SC hoplites in far away places is not unrealistic. As some proof, in SC (pg. 43) it states that the Sun County Templars are the ones who developed the hoplite tactics, but tactics similar to these are now a mainstay of the Lunar army. I argue that the Lunars must have come in contact with the SC hoplites at some point before 1610, more than likely in places outside of Prax. They must have seen the troops in action and been impressed with that type of warfare. Otherwise, why would they have adopted the tactic?
I would submit that the use of the Hoplite formation formed somewhere in the reign of Norokoris the Wise which means that there is at least 120+ years of use. The use of mercenaries in places other than Prax would have been probably started more than 50 years ago. Badside was founded as a sort-of trading post in the year 1490, so contact with Sartar goes back to at least then. There is also no reason to think that tactics could not be developed even in 50 years. The Macedonian system was developed under Alexander's father (Phillip) in his lifetime. This system was something fairly new to the Greeks and very complicated - combined warfare and actually using tactics!
I believe, however, that my original point has been lost in this discussion. If the Templars are only hired by nomads, this still supports my assumption that it will be a rare occurrence to find the Templar army in full battle formation with no cavalry support fighting a strictly cavalry army - thereby needing to rely on strictly defensive type formations. I believe this was the main argument I was trying to make. The majority of the time that you would see the infantry only vs. cavalry is during the nomad raids, and I think we have established that the raids are handled by holding up in fortified positions and using the combined might of the entire Sun County militia as well as the terrain to the hoplites advantage.
p.s.: I think SC states that there are up to 4000 troops available, but only 800 Templars and 1000 Local militia are available at a moments notice. Basically, I think this means that there are another 2200 trained troops within Sun County, a portion of which could be used or thought of as a mercenary pool.
Sandy:
>>It is my understanding that the halberds *corrected* the problem that
>the phalanx had over certain types of infantry and >cavalry.
> According to all my sources the pike was a later development.
>One book even implies that the Swiss started out with a halberd-only
>formation in the early days.
I didn't mean to imply that the pike was developed by the Swiss first (actually how difficult is it to *develop* a long spear - the ancients *developed* it long before the Swiss), then the halberd. It may very well have been the halberd tactics were developed first, but were not as effective against cavalry as a longer pike (the longer pike allowing more spear points from the back rows to be used against the initial charge). My only point is that the pike/halberd mix overcame some of the problems that were experienced with the Macedonian phalanx or long spear only formation, that is why you still see halberds in the Swiss army up until the end - they were a necessary element to the tactical formation. I am sure that the Swiss (and everyone else) *played* around with the mixture of pikes and halberds until they settled on the most effective combination. Then cannons were invented.....
>>Because of the long pikes, the phalanx had a problem when
>infantry/cavalry with short swords or close melee type weapons >(i.e.
>the legion) would close to melee range.
> But there was no other infantry like that until the Spanish came
>up with their sword-and-buckler men. And _they_ lasted less than a
>century, since they proved vulnerable to cavalry, whereas the pike
>continued in effectiveness until the invention of the bayonet.
>
But the Roman legion lasted several hundred years without using a pike (or long spear), so I am not sure what you are refering to. The legion and phalanx faced each other numerous times, and by all accounts, the legion infantry decimated the phalanx in a toe-to-toe battle. If not for the superior cavalry in the phalanx armies, people like Pyrrhus and Hannibal would not have had any success. (P.S.: If anyone wants to debate the phalanx vs. the legion effectiveness - E-mail me, please, and I would be happy to discuss this with you - spare the digest from that discussion).
If you are saying that no one used the sword/shield at the time of the Swiss (or later), then this makes a little more sense. The big thing at this time though is that the knights could wage a hand-to-hand battle once their initial charge was over. I believe the halberd was used to help dismount knights as well as being used as a close-combat weapon. The long pikes were basically useless once the battle closed to melee range and the initial charge was over.
If you want a good dipiction of what I am refering to, see Braveheart. The scene where the cavalry is charging into the mass of Scots shows pretty well what happens. The cavalry charges and takes a good bit of damage, but the knights aren't necessarily dead (though the horses aren't in the best shape). In that battle scene, you see the knights being ripped down from the horses and hacked apart by the ranks behind the spear wall. They are using melee/close-combat weapons to do this. If everyone were using a 3-5 meter spear, the knights would start hacking away at the pikemen - and the pikemen would not be able to fight back effectively.
IMO (and I am sure I could dig up references to prove it), if an army of pikemen without halberds faced an army of pikemen with halberds, the army with the halberds wins because they can win the close-combat melee. Both sides would do tremendous amounts of damage on impact, but as the battle wore one - the side that can win the melee will more than likely win the battle (unless the initial crush broke one side or the other - which probably didn't happen).
> The bison, high llama, and sables all include lancers. The
>amount of armor they have on their steeds varies, but is as much as many
>historical lancers had. In general they are less heavily-armored than a
>medieval knight, but I still contend that they qualify as "heavy"
>cavalry. They certainly attack in close formation, esp. the bison
>riders.
Since metal is very rare in Prax, and most of the metal weapons are traded for or stolen, I think it is a jump to assume that the both the rider and mount in a Praxian tribe would be well armored, especially since the metal would need to be reworked to fit the various types of mounts. Are the Praxians good at metal working? I think if you are not heavily armored (both mount and rider), then you will be decimated by charging into a line of spears. Also, by lancers do you mean the traditional knight lance or just a spear that is being used as a lance (as opposed to just being used as a thrusting melee weapon)? Also, IYO do the Praxians use stirrups and saddles (if not, then a lance charge would be suicidal)? Furthermore, since raiding is their main means of warfare/culture, I can't see them using heavy armor. It would slow the mount down, and make escape a bit more tricky. Of course there is always protection magic, but the enemy also has offensive magic. Now, the rhino riders have a very durable mount, so armor is not as important on the mount for them. Maybe it would help if I classified the knights as *extra-heavy* cavalry and those lancers found in Prax as *heavy* cavalry? In any case, it is my opinion that the *extra-heavy* cavalry is needed to crush the hoplites in a head-on charge. Lighter armored troops would just take too much damage on impact.
Sandy on night attacks:
> I submit that the Sun Domers are expert in night attacks.
I don't know how much this would hold up seeing as the duration of a divine spell is 15 minutes and the common soldier is not carrying around a bunch of divine spells. I would just feign an attack, make them cast the spells, then retreat and wait. Yeah, catseye works for 12 hours, but how often is the normal soldier going to be able to get the spell back. After a few raids at night, no soldier would have catseye left. They could go to the local temple and renew the spell, but eventually they will run out of POW. Also, dispel magic spells work fine for area effect light spells (like Sunbright) and then where are the Sun Domers - out in full battle array in the dark. Also, most of the light spells have a limited range, so they will be able to see say 10-50 meters in front of them, but not much more - not very effective against enemies using missile fire. Not only that, you have helped those who don't have these type of spells. The Templars are now a bright lit-up target. Fire away!
I think another disadvantage would be that the light priests wouldn't be able to unleash their Sunspear spells. In massed combat, these would be deadly - especially against powerful foes. I agree with you in concept. The Sun Domers certainly have the spells to help them at night, but I don't think this makes them expert night attackers - maybe helps them in defense of their fortified positions, though.
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