Kumbaya -- NOT!

From: James Frusetta <gerakkag_at_wam.umd.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:53:53 -0500 (EST)


Sergio Mascarenhas wrote:

> Trolls, hoomans, elfs and dwarfs are all very similar. That's
> because, yes, they are all quasi-humans.
Hmm, poor wording on my part. Yes, they're all man-rune critters. What I object to is taking Wargh the Troll, stripping him of his trollishness, and having him live in Orlanthi town. He's now a hooman (at least culturally) with a big STR and SIZ. I want Wargh to be a troll, and to keep his distinctly trollish culture.   

> Why do you think this is an un-human behavior? In which world do you live
> on?

Mars. ;)

No, you missed my point. It is *not* that the Elder Races are not as cheerfully genocidal as humans -- I'm sure I could stick trolls in the Banat, elves in the Sanjak and dwarves in Kosovo and they'd gleefully pitch in against the human inhabitants and each other.

My point is that is that the *Elder Races* don't want to live in peace with hoomans (where Panu had stressed that hoomans don't want the ER around). Yes, this is "human." It does not mean they want to live next to humans -- they want to force humans to fit into troll culture. Very different, to me. Why make 'em?

> Humm, I can also ask, why limit non-humans (the way you and current
> Gloranthan materials and prevailing approaches do) so that humans cannot
> live as minorities in non-human cultures?
Without meaning to be rude, read carefully what I wrote and what you responded to: quote, "Not to say this doesn't happen on occasion (or in the other direction, too), and the results can be interesting, but why make it a generic standard?" (V5, #341)

Humans can live as minorities in non-human cultures, and non-humans can live as minorities in human cultures. They *can* understand each other, IMO. Not a problem at all: offhand, just for trolls, you have the BMP humans, the Kitori, the friends of AA in Ralios, human ZZites, friendly human tribesmen in the Yolps.

But in all cases, they've given up some of their culture and adopted parts of trollish culture. Great! Cool! I've nothing against it, I swear. ;) Until this stops being a minority and starts being the *standard*. I want my trolls to defend their culture and heritage, not live on reservations thoughtfully set aside for them by the hoomans. ("Say, you trolls don't want to live in Dakori Inkarth! We're moving you to new lands in the Wastelands, where you can learn to farm! Plus, we'll be sending your kids away to Orlanthi boarding school...")

> The problem is that the way Gloranthan elder races are described these
> days, makes them unsuited to be acceptable 'player-character species'.

True... though part of this is surely because most ER have good reasons to be at home. Hard to play a troll without missing KL ceremonies, for example. Even if there are good reasons for it, I agree it's annoying. But if you're willing to give up your ER religion and expect a little razzing, you can still adventure -- and I've always figured that an extra +6 STR, 2d6 POW elfbow or armful of iron is a nice consolation prize. If there's no cultural problems, who in their right mind wouldn't play a Green Elf? I'm sure some of it must be game balance.

> A final note: in Glorantha, like in the RW, the most compeling reason for
> people from different origins to live together are:
<snip>
> In both cases, over time both races will build a common culture and start
> to share some interests.

Good point. But this has not stopped horrible inter-cultural disputes in the RW, after all. Ask a Moor, a Huegnot, a Bogomil, a Jew, a Cherokee or an Anatolian Greek how much their providing special skills to another cultural group enabled them to live without oppression or prejudice. If a big ol' clan of trolls settle down in human lands and continue typical troll practices, eventually there's gonna be a pogrom. (And note that all but one of these examples are pre-nationalism -- inter-cultural struggles weren't quite as bad before 1798, but they still existed.)*

Dan McCl(uz)key's points on this are right-on. It is _not_ impossible to have an elder race individual, or small group, adventure or settle in human lands -- or vice versa. Even up to a clan, maybe, under the right conditions. But large groups? Not unless they either give up huge amounts of their culture or the majority, ruling group is stand-offish with no desire to enforce their own culture (eg, the Mongols and Rus -- or the OOO). Jamuz Frusetta

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