On Doraddi (d)evolution, Dave Pearton adds this motivation
>I also have the ulterior motive of wanting mysterious ruins belonging to
>ancestral doraddi similar to the Zimbabwe ruins and the Matopas, etc.
Yes! The Zimbabwe ruins would be great.
Peter then said
>There is AFAIK some first age ruins in Kothar
>and plenty of Artmali ruins all over the place. But I was talking
>about Jolar.
I don't know when we restricted ourselves to Jolar, but there are ruins in the Kalali valley, which are ancient. The inhabitants are described as warped, but their graves do grow medicine plants, so they were probably Doraddi. I'd think these are probably Artmal era ruins or first age.
Peter
>Furthermore to deny that Pamalt is an Earth King because he
>does not manifest the same characteristics as Genert is also
>unsound methodology (and a tad close to God Learnerism IMO).
I note with some hilarity that Peter all-but-accuses me of God Learnerism, while he is directly defending the God Learner point of view against my accusations that it is somewhat incorrect! I am rather impressed by the audacity of this rhetorical manouver (degree of difficulty 9.8), and I thought it deserved some prominence.
[about Doraddi (d)evolution]
This seems to be the big issue, and it is obvious we are argueing at cross purposes. I am argueing that the Doraddi definately believe in (d)evolution now, and it moderately accurately represents recent history/ living memory (probably the last thousand years or so). You are argueing that it may not accurately represent the true situation of the First Age Doraddi. First, lets make it very clear that we can both be correct on these issues.
Secondly, let me make it clear that while I don't particularly agree with you on the nature of the first age Doraddi, I also don't think it is a particulary good topic to argue about, as available knowledge is extremely limited, so it really comes down to opinion. Another reason I don't want to argue about it is that it comes down to how central to the Doraddi mythos you want to make the John Hughes stuff, which is largely a matter of taste. I like it enough I don't want to throw it away, but I don't like it enough to base my whole conception of early Pamaltelan culture on it.
Anyway, on to expound these themes more specifically.
>Recent? We're talking about the first age Doraddi tribes who were
>living amidst the ruins of the Artmali Empire and had memories of
>how ruthless and evil it was.
What I said was that the recent (by which I mean, in a somewhat broad definition of recent, possibly as far back as late second age) Doraddi believe that the Doraddi used to more civilised, and now are less civilised and happier and better off. I deliberately said I'm not sure about whether this is what the First Age and earlier Doraddi thought. SO, while you may have been talking about the first age Doraddi tribes, I wasn't...
But if you want to talk about the origins of the Doraddi, I'm open to speculation, as long as we are all clear that its just wild speculation really. If anything, I think the original Doraddi culture had a stronger place for Lodril/Baba Ulodr worship. But I'm still trying to work out the early history of the Doraddi, and there may be more to it than that.
I note that the history of Jolar in TOTRM#8 refers only to Taluk Mormadak in the first age, with not a single word about what was going on in the other 5/6ths of Jolar. And all it says about TM is that it used to be an elf forest. The region is supposed to be 'Pamalts founding ground', though.
In reference to our last exchange, BTW, I've decided I'm not convinced that the Ia Rawthi controlled Dolorofey in the first age or earlier, which would explain why they did not expand into Jolar. I think the Ia Rawthi probably are the sad remnants of the Six Legged Empire, and before the Second age the area was controlled by someone else, most probably Doraddi.
>OTOH for their degeneration PoV to be valid, they would have to have
>tales about how wicked and corrupt the first age Doraddi were - less
>bad than the Artmali Empire but more bad than the Six Legged Empire.
>Which I find somewhat implausible.
Wicked and corrupt is not correct. They believe that the first age Doraddi were not as happy as they are now, and were worse plagued by evils like plague and starvation, because the first age Doraddi where not quite as sensible, and had things like permanent townships at the oases, and the plains where not all plains originally. Also, there were more corrupt civilised people (like more of the remnants of the Artmali) and bad dangers ( elves, trolls, and chaos) on what is now the plains then than there are now, who made things worse for the Right Footpath. Actually, I think there were also lots of tribes that weren't Pamalt worshipping, many of whom are now vastly reduced in numbers. Hon taught the Doraddi better ways, and got rid of most of the bad people.
And the Doraddi before the First Age, of course, were even worse off, and it was even more Not Their Fault, because the wicked forces like Vovisibor and Artmal oppressed them, and they didn't have Pamalt as their leader. I do think that even the Doraddi think the Great Darkness was the worst time, though, even worse than the original Artmali Empire.
>Thus IMO civilization is seen
>by the Doraddi as a Wicked Bad Thing which Stupid People try to
>introduce from time to time.
But they also believe that their own gloriously uncivilised state has been only gradually obtained. In part, the Doraddi have gradually progressed towards a less civilised state as they have defeated and cast out the various Stupid Civilised People. But there was also an element of the Doraddi gaining a better understanding of the benefits of non-civilisation, as they get rid of bad influences and great heroes like Hon Hoolbiktu reveal it to them.
>>Certainly, I think the Doraddi were more civilised in the Second Age, and
>>are deliberately less so in the Third (and claim to be much happier for
>>it), and this change is a result of Hon Hoolbiktu.
>
>Yeah, but I'm talking about the _first_ age tribes before the six-leggers
>came, not the enslaved tribes of the six-legged empire.
As I said, I'm deliberately trying not to speculate too much on the First Age, because I simply don't think we know enough about it. But I also think the early Second Age Doraddi (before the Six Legged) were more civilised that the end of the Second Age (after Hon) Doraddi.
Specifically, I think before the Six Legged they had more permanent tribal settlements at the oases, and Hon was the one who restricted the permanent residents to the current situation.
It has also become clear to me that that this creed of getting rid of civilising influences greatly glorifies the name of Hon Hoolbiktu, and that this was not a coincidence. Hon seems to have managed to create a cult of personality that is still going strong 400 years or so after his death, and the non-civilising creed very likely owes its current strength to the fact that Hon espoused it, and possibly to some extent vice versa.
I said
>Genert was always an earth god, Pamalt as far as I can tell
>married into the Earth tribe (Faranar was an earth goddess),
and Peter said
>Pamalt has stronger connections with the Earth than Faranar who is
>a wife goddess IMO.
That may true in their current roles. But that wasn't what I said, I was talking about their mythic origins.
To quote from the Pamalt writeup
"Pamalt was one, a son of Ancient Grandmother. He took to wife Faranar, an
earth mother, and they had many children."
also
>...why did the God Learners give Pamalt the (Kinship)
>Power Rune rather than the Earth Rune that their theory dictated?
I think the God Learners originally gave Pamalt an Earth Rune, and
it was revised later by the Six Legged Empire (and word filtered back to
the Jrustela). I'm pretty certain that the God Learners tried to turn the
Pamalt pantheon into an earth pantheon, and it seems obvious that if they
were to do so, Pamalt would turn into the Earth King, being chieftain with
all those Earth powers. Then the Six Legged Empire, who had a lot more time
and resources to appreciated the flaws in the God Learner work, were able
to analyze the Pamalt pantheon somewhat better. I base this opinion on my
interpretation of a lot of published stuff as representing the God Learner
point of view (yes, I know, you'd rather just say forget about it and say
it was a mistake), and also comments like this one from Sandy
>DUALA: the daughter of Faranar and Pamalt. She is born every year and
>makes the good rain come (as opposed to the bad rain). The God Learners
>originally tried to equate her with Voria, in their fumbled attempt to
>turn Pamalt's Necklace into an Earth pantheon. The Six-Legged Empire
>decided that Duala was not quite the same as Voria, and then they were
>able to deal with her effectively.
For what its worth, I think the Six Leggeds later used much the same techniques as the God Learners, they were just able to get a lot better access to the Pamalt cult heartlands (Jolar and Kothar) and spend a lot more time studying it. I don't think the God Learners where particularly blinded to Pamalts true nature, just did cursory research. There does seem to have been some permanent damage of some sort wreaked by God Learning, in Taluk Tumaru. Do you think that the Jrusteli God Learners where in the first wave of invasion, or the Six Legged Empire just got gradually better at it?
Cheers
David
A deaf man cannot hear the thunder, but he can see the rain - Doraddi proverb
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #464
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