Gary R Switzer replies
>I guess what I am getting at is that the further West you are at Dawn
the more stuff is in the way, sometimes
>for much of the morning, whereas if you are in the Eastern-most East
Isles you get a pretty clear view, while
>the opposite occurs when Yelm sinks slowly in the West.
I don' t think this is more impressive of an effect than you get on Earth when the sun rises. For much of my life I lived in a very mountainous land (Provo, Utah), in the shadow of a mountain. Every morning the sky got bright and we could see the sunlight on the distant peaks to the west, but we were in the mountain's shadow for much of the morning. Plants still grew, there was lots of light; it is kind of like being in a cloud's shadow, which everyone has experienced. You could also look to the west and see the shadow of the mountain shrinking towards you as the sun rose higher in the sky.
What I am claiming with reference to Glorantha is that Yelm is so far away that a person in the East Isles is not appreciably closer to him than a person in Jrustela. Both see the sun rise with about the same effects.
Rich Ohlson
>Does a hero path have to represent the direct actions of a god, or can
they reflect the actions of a hero?
It can be either. The vast majority are modeled after the god.
>For instance, I was told that the Lead Cross Quest revolved around a
Humakti Hero who heard about a
>Chalana Arroy that was doing some thoughtless resurecting, and went out
to whack her. Now, this doesn't
>really reflect the "will" of Humakt, or recreate anything he does, but
people who repeat the quest are doing a
>Humakti HeroQuest.
Well, sure it reflects Humakt's will. Humakt is, on some level, representative of the concept of irreversable separation. Resurrection is an attempt to alter something that shouldn't be altered, breaking one's word is similarly Wrong. Ditto for getting a divorce, betraying a friend, befriending an enemy, etc. But this is all rather besides the point of your original statement. There are two ways to look at a Hero's Heroquest. One is to say that the hero "discovered" the quest, that he somehow uncovered one of Humakt's old deeds unknown, perhaps, even to the god. The other is that by finding this connection within Humakt's heroplane pattern, he has actually caused it to be true within Humakt's own reality. Perhaps it was always true, but just under-emphasized. Who can say.
>Now, why can't Humakt himself, through divine intervention, contact on
the HeroPlane, etc, tell his Swords,
>"Do not repeat that blasphemous quest."???
He can. The fact that he did not is strong evidence for the rightness of Makla Mann's path (he's the guy who popularized the Lead Cross quest).
>Free will or no, it might be part of Humakt's character to be offended
by pointless killing, and the fact that a
>Hero went nuts and carried things "too far" doesn't really change the
god, does it?
If it was in Humakt's character to be offended by Makla Mann's quest, presumably he would have done something about it. There are lots of aspects of Humakt's (and any god's) cult which are affected by cultural mores, rather than eternal truths. Let's face it, the reason Humakti don't normally go around killing White Women is:
>Second, is it possible to steal a hero path from another cult?
That's what heroes do. They either bring you a spell from another cult, or they create a new one on their own.
>Wachazans cry themselves to sleep because they can't get Shield, but I
can't see why Wachazan Heroes
>wouldn't have gone to steal the spell from other cults.
Because there are very few Heroes in any cult. Even a cult as big as Wachaza doesn't have that many. Perhaps Wachazan heroes have gone after different defensive spells instead, or emphasized other options. Or perhaps there is something special in Wachaza's myth that discusses how he voluntarily gave up Shield in exchange for something more valuable, in which case restoring Shield would be blasphemous, just as a Yelmalion who claimed to have restored Fire Powers to his faith would be suspect.
Jeff Richard
>I don't believe that amongst the Orlanthi, at least, there is a class
of people called "thieves" that "worship an
>entity that can make their work more productive". Most Orlanthi, even
urban Orlanthi, worship the traditional
>pantheon with some foreign or regional cults thrown in. Certain "clans"
of Orlanthi might sacrifice to an entity
>(say Lanbril) to gain blessings - but I think that the label "thief
god" is a misnomer.
Well, technically this is correct, but I think you miss something here, Jeff. In the multitude of beings wandering around the Orlanthi universe, there are certainly spirits who are especially associated with the act of thievery. Naturally a superstitious thief or robber would want to sacrifice to such a spirit from time to time. In addition, if you actually managed to get some kind of organized crime going (which is, I admit, pretty damn rare in Theyalan society), the clannish group might organize its own worship. This, IMO, is more or less how the Black Fang and Lanbril "cults" got started.
>For folk with a penchant to take other folk's property who are not
members of these clannish associations, I >don't think there is are any
special cults.
Well, I agree with this. But non-members still may know about the gods worshiped by these groups. For instance, I do not believe that "Lanbril" is even a spirit -- I regard his "cult" as an intercity network of crooks which is pretty much secular. I don't think the true Lanbril society has worship services, specialty spells, priests, etc. It's pure business. Any magic they get is via contact with criminal sorcerers or acolytes. BUT I also believe that ignorant non-Lanbril thieves sometimes try to "worship" this non-deity, and that a mythology has sprung up around it. And in at least one place (Handra), the rumor of Lanbril has resulted in an actual pseudo-cult organized like a real religion.
>Finally, I hate the idea of a generic "thieves' cult" - as much as I
hate idea of a generic "thieves' guild".
I don't think there is one, any more than there is a generic "city god". It's just that spirits associated with thievery tend to have some similarities between cultures, and GoG tried to show the resemblances. But if you look closely at a Black Fang worshiper, it's easy to see that he has little in common with a Lanbril network burglar, or one of the Fonritian Tong-like bands.
>The idea of a Theyalan "patron of criminals" (besides Eurmal) just
struck an aesthetic nerve!
I also agree there is no Theyalan patron of criminals. Except in Handra where they think Lanbril is the God of Thieves.
Richard Ohlson
>I wonder if Soul Sight would show if somebody had performed a "banned"
quest.
Probably depends on the cult and the quest. Divination might be a better bet.
>Are there any quests that anybody knows, "should not be performed...?"
Of course. Almost all Eurmal quests are illegal, for instance. The Humakti blood feud ritual which ensures the death of the caster & the caster's enemy is generally banned. I bet your average Storm Priest gets antsy about the Ernalda quest in which his wife runs off to have an affair with Heler. No one is allowed to do any of the Tanian stuff -- his whole cult is forbidden, even though all the heroquests & rituals of Tanian can be uncovered with only minimal digging. Almost every cult and culture has aspects which at a given time the religion doesn't particularly want to emphasize. Modern Mormons see no need to exhaustively discuss polygamy, for instance, though we're not ashamed of it. Few American Catholics are aware of the fact that native African Roman Catholic priests are allowed to marry. It's not really a secret -- but why bring it up?
The same is as true of Gloranthan religions, or even more so, since some of their faiths cut near the bone. I bet there is a lengthy list of forbidden Babeester Gor quests, and that the Vangono men are watched like a hawk in Pamaltela, lest the old Start-A-War quest gets out of hand. Which seems to have happened in the Arbennan.
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #480
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