Heler and Daga
well, in one way I think they ARE brothers, that is from a HeroQuest point of view. To start with, they're natural enemies, and this links them into the same places in the Web, and means that they will always be in confrontation with each other. They are antagonists and probably have some kind of emotional link akin to brotherhood.
Simon Phipp:
=Someone on the Digest mentioned that Heler was created when
=Yelm fought with the Water Serpent (can't remember its name). It's a
=nice myth and explains why Heler lives in the Sky and why he was
=found within a Dragon. It also parallels a version of the Blue Moon's
=ancestry (when Yelm belly-flopped into the Styx) which is nice. I
=never liked the Daliath/Framanthe version and had never heard of
=the Shargrash/Oslira version.
I've done quite a lot of work on Heler, Aroka and Daga for my campaign, enough to know that these are not simple gods, and that it's probably impossible for anyone except for Greg to know all of their ins and outs, and do a decent write-up.
Basically, I think that Heler *is/was* Aroka, most of the time. The Heler/Daga/Aroka myth predates both Yelm and Orlanth, and I would say that the cosmic event described in this myth actually took place in the Green Age, when there was only Darkness, Water and Earth. Aroka was defeated and dismembered by an Earth God, identifiable in Praxian mythology as Tada!, (although I might be being a bit too godlearnerish here) and boundaries were made to separate the earth from the water. Tada! defeated the dragon very efficiently, and this IMO is a BIG reason why there is so little water in Tada!'s dominion.
*Heler*, then, used to be one of the chief gods of the water tribe, and he was a powerful war god. He was a leader of the invasion of the lands, and was defeated by *Daga*. When *Yelm* took over, this hero path was taken over by his cult, as one of the great kingly attributes (propagation of life-giving waters, life-giving that is to all races previously defeated by water gods), and was subsequently taken over by *Orlanth*, who made the current form of the story. Yelm used this power with rivers, Orlanth does it with rain. You'll find that this myth will have wildly different versions in every culture, even more than usual, because the cosmic event took place so far away in prehistory.
As an aside, in my Glorantha the Creekstream River and the Oslir (which used to be a single river which ran between the White Sea, the Homeward Ocean and the Heavens) are populated by the species Arokator, which is a blue alligator-like creature, quite small and with a more snake-like body. Arokators live mainly off fish, small birds, lizards and mammals, and the like, but they're quite fearless, and don't mind biting bits off people. They're rarer in the Oslir where the population is easier to control. They also live in the Sky, and individuals swim down into Skyfall Lake, making the southern arokators *impossible* to eradicate.
This species, the Oslir and the Creekstream River are all parts of Aroka, and Heler is another. And so is Sky River Titan, and there you have an explanation of his wound.
Xavier Spinat:
= Except for Farang Farosh (and Delecti), is any human of EWF
=possibly still alive?
Although originally from Adari, Pavis was educated in EWF (way back in the ninth century, too), and he is still alive in his Real City Temple. He is, of course a half-elf and a god, so maybe he doesn't count as a human of EWF. 'Human of EWF' might, of course, be a partial oxymoron.
Ian Thomson:
= this cave entrance at Horn Gate has intrigued me since I first read
=of it, probably 10 yrs ago
Well, when Garrath goes off to ressurrect Pinchining, I think he does so at Horn Gate, and so I would imagine that the caverns of Horn Gate lead to Hell.
Peter Metcalfe:
=David Clegg:
=[upon the Red Moon}
=Me>>1. "It Was Destroyed. Everyone knows that it was =destroyed. It
=>>broke and fell from the sky. That is where the Crater comes from: =its
=>>impact site."
=>What if this is the same crater that already exists during the hero
=>wars? Zin could be mistaken about the origin of the crater.
=It probably is. But then again, according to what I heard in Seattle,
=the recieved story about the origins of the Crater could be Lunar
=propaganda.
I *think* that the Crater was called the Volcano before the Lunar Age. This isn't, of course, conclusive of anything. The Moon most likely *did* rise up from the Crater, and if it did come crashing back down later, it's probably worth remembering that the Moon itself is made, not of red cheese, but of Young Elemental material (ie alien substance). However it were destroyed, it's passing would probably not leave much of a physical mark in the world (but perhaps a huge spiritual one), hence the future rarity of moonrock. Unless it wasn't destroyed, of course, but turned white, invisible, etc.
Philip Hibbs:
=If you like. Personally, I don't share your confidence in our inherent
=superiority over our predecessors. Remember, there is a *real* flat =earth
=society, in existence today. I hear they want schools to teach their =point
=of view instead of the blasphemous Round Earth heresy.
um. actually I was trying to sarcastically imply the opposite, that our predecessors were just as sophisticated as we are or aren't. The idea that human societies can exist without knowing that sex leads to babies is IMHO untenable. Scientifically, that is. I think it might be OK, however, inside some pocket of the Syndic's Ban, or perhaps in a novel by Jean M Auel.
OTOH Gloranthan primitives are NOT 'our predecessors', which means we can have it any which way we and Greg like, WITHOUT having to worry about whether or not life was really like that in the Stone Age.
Also, I _personally_ believe that the world is shaped more like a squarish, slightly bulgeing flattish lozenge, and so much for Round Earthers!
I always thought that the Flat Earth Society was an intellectual joke.
If I some anthropologist came up to you and started asking detailed personal questions about your knowledge, or lack of, concerning the facts of life, wouldn't you feel like taking the piss? I certainly would. IMHO the origin of this nonsensical theory of primitives' ignorance about sex.
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #538
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