>Well, I have to try, don't I? Although with Joerg as opposition, this
>could be tricky.
I wasn't aware that I would appear as attacking Kallyr or defending Argrath. She is fairly incompetent as commander-in-chief, and he is a ruthless bastard - these are the facts.
>> Well, I suppose that taking the crown of the Prince of Sartar involves
>> a couple of hefty oaths to swear, including one to protect the Telmori
>> and fulfil that ancient promise (at least by implication in the oath).
>I suspect those oaths are taken right back at initiation into the
>ancestor section of the Cult of Sartar.
Maybe - but, much like Belintar's brush with the Red Guards, some of the oaths may have meanings which don't become evident before a certain trigger (like taking the crown) is pulled. If the ancestral initiation includes "uphold the oaths of the Jonstown confederation", who would think that this includes a promise to the Telmori?
>I'm sure they're repeated at the crowning, but
>that's just public confirmation. (Incidentally, I think being an
>ancestor-subcult initiate is a prerequisite to being Prince, and I think
>initiation requires the Flame, which gave everyone but Kallyr real
>problems between 1602 and 1627! Proof of bloodline could be done by making
>the Flame flicker, but no new initiates until it was re-lit.)
One possibility. I always liked the Viking Box "Gods witout Godar" section and state that a deeper initiation without priests meddling is possible. It's the hard, heroquesty way, with real opposition rather than token opposition, but it's possible, even with a dormant deity.
>Given that Kallyr had taken that oath, I think that was one reason why
>she tried to support the Telmori in 1613. Keeping her word would
>over-ride politics and strategy.
And she lacks the sense of legalism displayed by Argrath in the Mularik fragment...
>Oh, and I suspect she was one of the "rebels" who helped the Telmori
>against the Lunars in 1607. Just to add another time she lost a battle to
>the list :(
:-)
The very existence of these rebels shows that quite a lot of tribes who are no direct neighbours to the Telmori have this attitude "my foe's foe is an ally".
>> Argrath's relation to Kallyr sounds similar to Tarkalor's relation to
>> Jarolar - not quite as good pedigree
>Nice analogy. But Tarkalor would have been a Sartar initiate. Argrath was
>not. (There's a thought - how did Jarosar die? "Fell to poison from a
>friend's hand." Hmmm.)
New depths to the House of Sartar...
I don't know if Tarkalor was counted as a friend of Jarosar. Probably not. But then some sort of kinstrife seems to have gone on between Onelisin and her brothers, too.
>> Her popularity as a war leader has always mystified me. Kallyr has as
>> bad a military record as Tatius the Bright ...
>Actually, that's not quite fair.
Hey, Lunar propaganda makes Tatius the most successful warleader of the last two wanes - who else has been known to crush the enemy god so decisively? Tatius and Kallyr are renowned for expensive victories (after more expensive losses).
>Let's take a look at the battles, shall we?
>1607 (if she was there): not the leader in any case, and hopelessly
>out-numbered.
Out-maneuvered, rather. Jomes can't have had a vast numerical advantage, he had at most 2000 Peltasts and maybe half as many Sartarite volunteers. The humans of the Telmori tribe in combat-fit age probably are about as numerous, give or takea few hundred rebel volunteers. It was Jomes' display of tactics and discipline which gave him the edge.
>1613: WFP suggested that far from being the undisputed leader, she was
>chair of a committee that couldn't stop squabbling. The CHDP version of
>events has the usual Denseros bias: remember by the time it was written,
>the Fazzurites were Argrath's allies.
They are a favourite party of mine, too. I like the conflict between the imperial faction and the provincial faction in Tarsh and in the Provincial Government, leading to three different approaches to the Sartar policy, all within the same government. This makes Lunar unity of purpose about as hard to achieve as Sartarite unity of purpose (and, more importantly, leaders).
>Broyan's battles: we have no idea to what extent she took part in these,
>but some of them were pretty impressive. Probably Broyan's doing, but I'd
>hope she was at least watching and learning.
E.g. at Pennel Ford (where she seems to have participated at Pennel Ford, judging from Tamera Threeslice's report in Questlines 2).
>1625, Dangerford. The only account we have of this is from Denseros The
>Impartial, and he seems to have been impressed by her leadership if not
>the quality of her troops. Describing the Tarshites as "leaderless" is
>perhaps unfair: these weren't the troops who had been at the Dragon
>disaster, and to start with Fazzur himself was present.
To start with. I guess that Fazzur got to arranging his troops, perhaps laying out a preliminary combat plan, when a messenger rode a half-dead horse into his command tent and spurted out the news that the Phargantites had slaughtered many of his followers and supporters at home. Fazzur packed, with his most of his personally allied officers, leaving a very deplenished staff to carry out a battle plan of Fazzur based on individual initiative of his sub-commanders, to be complemented with Fazzur's reactions to the tids of battle. All these factors were missing now, and it's an old truism that no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. So, what's left is a deplenished Lunar battle line led by uninspired officers thrust into charge by Lunar treachery.
>Battle of Queens: look, she was dead for most of it! What do you expect
>from her?
Until she died, the battle had a definite sense of doom, didn't it?
>(And we won, anyway).
>Sword Hill: it's a shame the only account we have is so very biased.
>Personally I think she wasn't there. She was in Boldhome, lighting the
>Flame. Like I say, she does know when to delegate.
IMO this is more a case of ignoring the north. The lands brought into Sartar by Terasarin can't really expect to be loved by Kallyr, both for her relation to Terasarin and for their role since 1611.
>Defeat of Gunda: if chasing off wolf-pirates is that easy, why is
>everyone so scared of them, then?
Because they tend to come back even when "scared" (isn't this lacking an "r"?) away.
>Defeated by Harrek (in seriously berserk mode): I think she had some
>excuse for that, myself.
Sure. It's only the subsequent loss of Boldhome which makes that battle look bad.
>And as a defender of Argrath,
Who, me? I am one of the people who pointed out that Argrath fought the rightful ruler of Sartar to become prince.
>Joerg came up with a wonderful own goal.
>> 1627 at the Battle of Queens (or, wrt his reputation, and unexpected
>> Lunar teleportation abilities, let's hope he was absent and not leading
>> the Lunars to Kallyr's hird).
>I'd never thought of that - I just assumed the Lunars knew how to
>teleport. I don't think he could have been leading the ambush in person:
>but casting the spell.... yes, I like this idea! That's nearly as good as
>his setting Harrek on her later. Given a choice of honour or expediency,
>we all know which Argrath will go for. That's why he's such an effective
>King, after all.
Glad to be of service... The problematic thing would be how to contact the Phargantites in charge of this, unless these were Fazzurites too low in rank to refrain from following Phargantite lead. The Fadabius letters indicate that there were constant contacts between Tarsh and Sartar during this time.
>Another thought on who ended up allied to who: didn't that Jomes Wulf
>chap have some land more or less in the middle of things? If the Telmori
>were on Kallyr's side, he wouldn't have been (even if she'd have allied
>with a Lunar: I suspect not). Could he have joined Argrath?
Sure. I suppose many of his men were of Tarshite (or other provincial) origin, like most of Argrath's "Sartarite" followers (Far Point...), even if Peltasts were a Sylilan institution.
>The
>description of Argrath killing Telmori in the Saga (KoS27) is
>suspiciously similar to Jomes in 1607 (KoS143).
>Oh, and did you all spot Argrath in 1627 (having just missed the Flame)
>asking Leika's permission to import a bunch of his supporters from Pavis
>to the Colymar lands? Was Leika swapping sides as the whim took her, or
>was she just very naive?
Leika may well have been aware of both Argrath's character and Kallyr's weakness as a leader. I guess her first reign may have been somewhat naive, but after having been shunted out by Blackmor with Lunar help she would have grown up IMO.
Remember that Leika is the most powerful tribal king in Sartar. She is the logical advocate for a decentralisation of power, and Argrath is the best counterweight to use against Kallyr to keep her in line with the tribal kings' wishes even after some distinction won at Dangerford. Note that the test she gives to Argrath is sufficiently unlikely to be solved in full...
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