Various quibbles

From: Jane Williams <jane_at_williams.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:18:26 +0000


Picking up bits and pieces of Joerg's Digest:

> I'd like to think that the oasis people inherit some distinct trait
> which identifies them as oasis folk (or descendants of the Praxian
> Golden Age people), and makes their acceptance into the Beast Rider
> tribes very difficult.

I have a vague memory of their eye colour being unusual. No idea where I got it from, I'm afraid. But of course, if they practise Ernaldan (Eirithan?) Eugenics, then giving them some distinguishing feature becomes practical as well as plot-useful: it's cast on them at birth!

> ...Cragspider as an enemy of Ingolf Dragonfriend during the later EWF
> period. Which is a bit funny, considering that Craggie is a
> dragonfriend of sorts herself...

"The friend of my friend is my friend"? Sorry, life doesn't work like that.

> Venharl ... still seems to have appeared in Greg's house campaign ...
> around 1614...

He did? I knew he rescued her at some point, but had no idea it was then. I was re-thinking my ideas on Venharl anyway, and this may fit nicely. We have Venharl as a wanderer, basically. We know he has at least one son in Pavis. Suppose he fathered young Garrath on some woman or other in Pavis, wandered around, came back to find she'd died and he was left with a son to take care of. Kids and adventuring don't mix. So he takes the brat down to Sartar and dumps him on his old friends Maniski and Yanioth, reckoning that this wil be better than being brought up as an orphan in Badside. Garrath stays there until about 1602/3 when the Lunars kill M&Y, he kills a Lunar, and he runs back to Pavis.

The only hole left is where Garrath gets his supposed Sartar blood from. The main possibilities I can see are:

1) he doesn't have any
2) the unknown mother (Brenna??)
3) Venharl - on the female side somewhere. As you point out yourself, 
there are lots of ways this could have happened.

> If Urrgh the Ugly was present (who brought him back?
And WHY???

> ...Sartarite rebels ready to defend the Telmori against Jomes Wulf in
> 1607. In 1621, of course, these warriors would be toothless old men, at
> least 15 years out of their fighting prime...
Not sure of the significance of 1621, but I can think of at least one who was probably present for 1607 and 1625. And I doubt if she was toothless or past it (ask Gunda).

> IMO the fragment "Events of my Life" is quite free of editing, or
> things like "Karendra binds her hair" would have been edited out, and
> politically problematic statements ("Harrek kills the Good Queen") have
> been left in.

I agree completely. Well, maybe Karendra, being harmless, would have been left in. But things like Kallyr's deeds after Old Top would have gone. I really wish Min. Blue hadn't been so frugal with the parchment!

> IMO Kallyr's "local solution" to the Lunar threat was doomed to perish
> within the generation.

Shall I say it again? We have no idea what Kallyr's solution was, because our only source is CHDP. Possibly she thought Garrath's antics were pretty stupid, possibly she was using him and Aldachar as a buffer, possibly she was doing her own politics in the background. We don't know. Until we find the full version of Min. Blue's memoirs, we're not going to know. So criticising her for a lack of ideas is pretty poor logic.

> instance, one has to unite all local powers against the outside
> threat. A feat Argrath managed admirably
You mean like in 1627? When he'd just won Sword Hill, and she *still* had more support than he did? 1625, when she united the tribes, and he had a few dozen rabble in Pavis? He was doing his best to DIS-unify Sartar - even CHDP admits it!

>> *IF* Garrath ever took those oaths, I bet he read all the small
>> print first!

> Do we talk about the same Argrath who had to yield Tarsh to Mularik
> Ironeye for the statement that Mularik had saved his realm?
Yes. That was a promise made in his youth, wasn't it? He learnt, later on.
>> The promise to the Telmori was to help free them of
>> their curse, wasn't it? Well, he did. Dead wolves aren't cursed.

> That's not the way Sartar's promises turn out, IMO, which is why I
> don't think this is a viable route of thought to follow IMG.
I agree that it is not what Sartar would have wanted. Would this have stopped Garrath?

> But then, my favourite idea, that Argrath would illuminate the Telmori
> in the true Nysaloran sense and not the Gbajian way of the Lunar Empire
> isn't too likely to find supporters, is it?
Hmmm. And they disliked the idea, and turned on him. It presumes that he was Illuminated himself (which I could go along with). Maybe he got chatting to Belvani, back in Pavis? You know, I quite like this idea. Simply killing them was too easy an answer.

>>>> Keeping her word would over-ride politics and strategy.
>>> And she lacks the sense of legalism displayed by Argrath in the
>>> Mularik fragment...
>> Quite! See what I mean about her ability to do all that he did? Not
>> "couldn't", but "wouldn't".

> Which is what makes Argrath the better ruler in the end,
And that is where we disagree. It makes him a more effective ruler, but not a better one.

>> "Disheartened Sartarites.... outnumbered but held a good position..."
> Disheartened - i.e. unmoved by her charisma.
Disheartened: i.e. very upset that she had been hurt, but still willing to face superior numbers as long as she was leading them.

>> And since Leika had some troops left to
>> lead in a charge, they can't have been doing *too* badly.

> Not quite. Holding a defensive position means assigning troops to
> places yet not under attack.

A successful defence against superior numbers is a success. Although I wonder what she was waiting for? Garrath and the reinforcements?

OK, on to lighter topics.

> Personally, I'm of the persuasion that Kallyr Starbrow is a duck,
> hence the Lunar Empire's anti-duck policies after her rebellion.
River of Cradles states very explicitly that this is not the case. However, it also implies that quite a few people believe it. And if Belief produces Truth, maybe she's growing feathers. Or, of course, the entire Kheldon tribe are actually Ducks, and no-one ever bothered to mention it before (too obvious). The link with the Royal House came about as a result of Sartar's promises to the Ducks (never specified).

On the other hand, much as I like this idea, maybe the Lunars disliked the Ducks because they controlled the river trade route to Esrolia?

> Why do nomads need male slaves?

Dung-gathering?
Carrying heavy loads (don't want to wear out the herd beasts) Digging latrine pits (do Praxians bother?) Ablative armour?
Making the slave's family very unhappy by mistreating him?

> > their copy of KING OF SARTAR (fallen through from the Fourth Age)..
> They first have to figure out a way to translate the damn thing
> without going bonkers (as the first person who tried it did).
Sounds like the cause of the Illiteracy Era to me. Drat, I was hoping to blame that on Garrath :(

And speaking of Garrath, Pete Metcalfe says:
> But the first meeting occurs early in his reign which is impossible in
> 1627 since he was not Prince of Sartar then.
Reign in Aldachur, perhaps.

> It seems odd to suggest that when the Karandoli migrate into the lands
> of the Colymar, they are not treated as members of the Colymar.
Sounds perfectly normal to me. Just letting them in at all is quite a concession.

> 'When Argrath returned _home_ he was welcomed by everyone at the City
> of _Boldhome_.'

He returned to Aldachur, and they suggested that he head down to Boldhome and light the Flame. He got beaten to it, but still welcomed.

> '"But we can consider you has an honorary member," said the Queen.
Not a full member.

> "Please stay, and we will have a great feast for _our_ prince."'
Kallyr.
Or, possibly, "our" as in "one of us", "prince" (lower case) of Aldachur.

Now on to terribly serious questions about HQing and God-Learnerism.
> And, extending this theory, if every Heroquester emulates Arkat, every
> Heroquester is a God Learner.

Those HQers who seek to alter things rather than following existing paths might well count as GLs, yes. Most don't do this.

> And since cult rituals are a sort of Heroquest, would the priests,
> initiates ... who participate in this rituals be God Learners?
No, because cult rituals intend to follow existing paths, not to alter them or to make new ones.

Jane Williams jane_at_williams.nildram.co.uk http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~janewill/gloranth/


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