Jane asks:
>> More importantly, I am discovering that as a Kheldon tribal king, many
>> folk from other tribes didn't trust Kallyr.
>Sounds interesting. What's your source? (Mind you, distrusting the king
>of another tribe sounds perfectly normal to me!)
The same place I learn the most about Orlanthi customs and life - with my fellow Seattle players (David Dunham, Pam Carlson, Neil Robinson, Dana Schack, Loren Foster and Gregg Richard). The house campaign has jumped forward about two and a half centuries and we've seen Starbrow's Rebellion from the eyes of the Varmandi.
Part of the success of the House of Sartar was that they didn't belong to other tribes and thus were outside of the perennial and vicious conflicts that wracked the Quivini. When Salinarg was dead and Boldhome sacked, the embers had barely cooled before the Orleving and the Varmandi took advantage of the lack of leadership to rekindle their deadly feud. No self-respecting Colymar would allow a Kheldon tribal member to claim authority to arbitrate the dispute. Remember - in Orlanthi social institutions, the arbitrator must be someone with authority over the disputants - something that Sartar himself managed to achieve quite extraordinarily and hence the reason that he is worshipped.
As an illustration, back in the First Age, Lokamayadon appointed a juror to arbitrate the conflict between him and Rastalulf Vanak Spear. Rastalulf killed the juror out of hand - making the point that he refused to recognize the juror's authority and by extension, that of Lokamayadon.
>> Granted he later turned out to be a rather big disappointment, but at
>> the time, he was viewed by some to be Sartar returned.
>"Sartar the Peacemaker" - yes, why not? He may even have been a worthy
>candidate before he got Tapped out of his senses.
An urban myth. I doubt Temertain was ever Tapped. As Nick aptly pointed out, Temertain's problem was that he had no power to back up his authority. And a powerless Orlanthi politician is useless.
>> I wasn't aware that I would appear as attacking Kallyr or defending
>> Argrath. She is fairly incompetent as commander-in-chief, and he is a
>> ruthless bastard - these are the facts.
>Yes, and in previous discussions you've concluded from them that he is a
>more deserving and useful leader than she is. I still think there is a
>great deal more to rulership than simply being a warlord (ask Sartar),
>and that in any case we have next to no unbiased accounts of her battles
>to go on.
No, I simply think that Argrath was a much more successful leader than Kallyr. Kallyr may have been just as ambitious as he - just not as successful. For most of the Sartarites, that's going to be the bottom line. For example, many Colymar abandoned Leika Beti because she failed to do something about the exhorbitant Lunar tribute (for instance, the Varmandi were assessed an annual tribute of 400 cattle) and Blackmor promised to do something about it. And he did. That's the bottom line - is my leader lucky at war, generous with gifts and accompanied with good harvests? If so, then I support him/her whole-heartedly. If not, then I grumble, look for alternatives, and maybe rebel.
The Seattle Farmer LARPs (Fall of the House of Malan and Orkarl's Bull) are wonderful illustrations of Orlanthi tribal and inter-tribal politics. Just ask Rick Meints or MOB just how loyal folk are to the king when the chips are down.
>She spent a lot of time fighting alongside Broyan, and at the
>end of that time had no trouble gathering troops for a fight in which
>she was known to be outnumbered. Either all Sartarites are idiots, or
>she'd acquired a reputation that CHDP doesn't bother to mention (I
>wonder why?)
I think this falls under the old "Only Horse in the Race" rubric.
>>> Keeping her word would over-ride politics and strategy.
>> And she lacks the sense of legalism displayed by Argrath in the
>> Mularik fragment...
>Quite! See what I mean about her ability to do all that he did? Not
>"couldn't", but "wouldn't".
I think you are over-romanticising Kallyr. I suspect that her performance on the High Council was filled with actions that others (like Kallai Rockbuster or Hofstaring Treeleaper, etc.) found objectionable and self-serving. Again, an illustration from the Seattle house campaign: during the rebellion, the Varmandi whole-heartedly supported Kallai Rockbuster. If you asked a Varmandi who he was fighting for, he'd proudly answer "King Kallai" not Kallyr. When the rebellion failed, many Varmandi were happy to blame Kallyr and the ducks for the failure. "Why should we fight and die for Kallyr's ambitions?" was spoken around many a hearth fire - - especially with the apparently neutral Temertain as an option.
This isn't to say that folk were necessarily enchanted with Argrath either - - I suspect many were shocked by his ruthlessness, his terrifying and destructive allies, and his overweening ambition. I even suspect that there were those chieftains who continued to support Kallyr simply because she wasn't Argrath. However, Argrath was not "Bad King Urgrain" revisited - - I suspect that he was a generous warleader, listened (if not always followed) lawspeakers and genuinely sought the destruction of the hated Red Moon. But like so many Orlanthi heroes (including the Big O himself), Argrath (and Kallyr for that matter) were complex characters who often broke eggs in order to make omelettes. But then again, that's what the Orlanthi expect of their heroes.
Jeff
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #545
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