Dreams, Kethaela

From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_toppoint.de>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 22:15 MET DST


I said:
>> IMO dreams are one way to enter Godtime, to use the computer-analogue
>> "in protected mode" (usually).

Nils Weinander:
>Yes! The land of dreams definitely has a connection to
>the world of the gods. In the East Isles they say that
>Thella's Net binds the islands together in the Nowtime,
>while the otherworld remains in the Dreamtime. I.e.
>dreams _are_ trips into the mythic world.

Also look at Campbell's concept of heroquesting. The difference is that in an ordinary dream, the "quester" keeps a fair distance from the actual involvement.

Peter Metcalfe takes exception to my:
>>Before the Dragonkill War, nobody had to flee there from the Only Old
>>One either.

>The Only Old One was one of the chief beneficiaries of Arkat's Command.
>Given that this caused the Kingdom of Dragon Pass to rise up in revolt,
>I think plenty of people would have fled the OOO into Dragon Pass after
>the Tax Slaughter.

Not quite. Most of Kerofinela was under Dagori Inkarth control, the OOO controlled Esrolia and Caladraland, and (perhaps) Hendriki-ruled Heortland (which IMO included parts of modern Sartar and Grazelands in that time).

I always thought the Tax Slaughter took place somewhere near Aldachur, outside of the OOO's sphere.

>>Or into the Praxian Marches, or into Ditaliland.

>The Praxian marches are inhabited by hostile nomads

And were settled in larger numbers in the early 1300s, after the failed Trader Prince expedition to Teshnos, if what was discussed a couple of weeks ago holds your approval.

>and the history of
>Wenelia is still largely unknown. Thus we cannot rule out people fleeing
>brutal oppression by the OOO.

Or vice versa. Read Geolgin Askarios.

>>Fact is,
>>people fled into the Shadowlands rather than out of them (except when
>>the lands were invaded).

>Name one migration into the Shadowlands.

The Trader Princes of southern Heortland in the early 3rd Age. Of the 2nd Age, there is no data available, although I suppose that Old Day Traditionalists had it easier in the Shadowlands than in the EWF proper.

>The Kingdom of Night
>had almost disintegrated after the Battle of Night and Day in
>379 such that the OOO's forces are not present at the battle
>of Vanntar, nearly eighteen years later!

Another case of "and has ruled without interruption since..." like Godunya in Kralorela (not a single mention of Sheng in the published material!).

I don't have the exact timetable before me, but wasn't this already the time of Palangio's siege of the Shadow Plateau? This is similar to "taking Exile in Whitewall" in 1619.

>Thus I think the land
>around the Stormwalk hills was not fled to because the OOO
>ruled over it but rather that it was Terra Nullis.

In the time before the Tax Slaughter, it was Terra Hendrikorum, and a lot better than being bullied by Dagori Inkarth trolls.

>>I don't have any evidence about Caladralander migrations, but the
>>Colymar probably came from the northern Esrolian outskirts.

>The Colymar came from the Orshanti clan in Heortland.

IMO the Colymar came from the Creek-Stream River valley just north of the place where now the Lead Hills block its path.

KoS p.200:
: South of Dragon Pass lived the Orshanti Clan. They were of the Hendriki : Tribe, and were good Orlanthi.

IMO the Colymar branch of the Orshanti were one of several Orlanthi clans living under Kitori rule in the haunted lands north of the Obsidian Castle, in a region with a continuous change from Esrolite to Hendriki culture.

KoS p.201:

: With the blessing of the Old Orshanti Clan, and safe passage guaranteed 
: by the Kitori kings, the new Black Spear clan packed up its belongings, 
: drove its herds before it, and prepared to enter into Dragon Pass.

The modern Orshanti (at least during the time of Sartar the hero) lived along the Solthi river, at the northern end of the Footprint. Fragments of the clan are likely to live elsewhere, too - remember that Hendriki clans can easily reach the size of Sartarite tribes.

I'm not certain how great the Kitori influence in the Colymar decision was. Did the Kitori expect them to settle just south of the Cross Line, as another potential tributary clan?

>As for
>the Esrolian migrations, surely their larger population would
>mean that there would be more migrants into Dragon Pass? The
>number of Vendref under the Grazer yoke (assuming that they
>are Esrolians) seem to contradict this.

Those who survived. Remember that the Grazers were Pentans by culture, with a thorough disregard for the ground people - cattle to be raided or slaughtered for fun. Since the crossing of the border occurred in secrecy (at first), no word leaked back to those who followed later.

IMO the demise (or even earlier the decrease in power) the OOO suffered at the hands of Belintar released Kitori cruelty onto their subject clans and tribes rather than soften it. In real world history, it took the demise of King Goettrik of Denmark under Charlemagne's reign to prepare for the horrors of independent Viking warlords.

>>Borngold the
>>Usurper's rival and later (sacred) king of the Colymar Barngradus traced
>>his lineage to a priestess who faced Belintar the Stranger in open
>>conflict. (Which invalidates the 1300 date in CHDP for the Colymar
>>immigration to Dragon Pass...)

>I don't see how.

And I don't see how to change that, but I'll try nonetheless. Once.

>Assuming you are talking about Garneneva, we
>do not know that this is an Esrolian Priestess. She could be
>a Vingan which is perfectly plausible for a Heortling and is far
>more likely to fight Belintar in 'hand-to-hand' conflict.

Could be. If my theory has a 40% likelihood, I'd give yours a 25% likelihood. A Vingan usually gets an epithet (the Reddest, Red Woman, Runaway Woman). They don't usually start a lineage. And Garneneva must have been around 60 when she faced Belintar, assuming normal generation shifts for her lineage. If you mean she was a Vingan avenger widow, well, slightly possible. In that case this would be something for Jane to write into the cult of Vinga - how they resisted the Pharaoh (and supported the OOO?).

>The
>epithet could have been gained after the birth of her son or
>grandson. Given all these possibilities, I see little need to
>traduce the history of the Colymar's Book as an invention.

Neither do I. IMO a couple of facts were tweaked a bit.

In fact, Colymar Book supports the interpretation that the Colymar fled from Belintar in person.

p.200:

: Some time later the land of Kethaela was embroiled in civil war. A 
: foreigner was trying to take command of the land. The foreigner, who 
: did not worship gods anyone knew about, claimed sacral kingship. The 
: Hendriki protested, supporting the ancient rights of the Only Old One, 
: ruler of the land.

The 1300 date comes from the CHDP (p.130).

"At the place called Centaur Cross" - a cross jointly raised by Belintar and Ironhoof around 1350, i.e. about 150 years before the first king list and the history intro were put to parchment. Probably the same place, but yet without the altar.

"During the ten years or so of peace that Colymar and his folks had" ... "The first wave came into Dragon Pass around 1325" calculates the date of their immigration to around 1315. Since I believe that Belintar dealt with the Hendriki and the lands north of Shadow Plateau only in the later half of his war against the OOO, 1315 or 1316 sound very convincing to me, and the 1300 of CHDP sounds like capital Bollocks if taken literally.

The most problematic statement is "of the Orshanti clan [...] of the Hendriki tribe". It is perfectly possible to be good Orlanthi and yet live in North Esrolia, with firm ties into their earth worship.

One thing which makes this claim a bit fishy is that it is written just after Sartar has unified the Quivini tribes, and probably written for King Venharl, a known supporter of Sartar.

Still, if you allow for the river valley north of Shadow Plateau as the origin of the Colymar clan group, both CHDP's claim "Esrolia" and the Colymar Book claim "of the Hendriki tribe" aren't mutually exclusive.

If you don't want to follow any of this argumentation, well, I see little chance for a fruitful discussion, otherwise I'm eager to expand the scarce facts we have on the time of Belintar's civil war.


End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #561


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