JB>>>I don't have any evidence about Caladralander migrations, but the
>>>Colymar probably came from the northern Esrolian outskirts.
Me>>The Colymar came from the Orshanti clan in Heortland.
>IMO the Colymar came from the Creek-Stream River valley just north of the
>place where now the Lead Hills block its path.
That is far too close to the Shadow Plateau for my liking. If that were the case one would expect the Colymar to be dominated by Darkness like the Torkani are.
>IMO the Colymar branch of the Orshanti were one of several Orlanthi clans
>living under Kitori rule in the haunted lands north of the Obsidian Castle,
>in a region with a continuous change from Esrolite to Hendriki culture.
I fail to see how you can extend Esrolite influence into this region. As of 1605, the Esrolians were as far away as the site of the Building Wall. Given that Arkat's Hold lies in this region, it seems that this was the traditional boundary between Esrolia and Dragon Pass. After Dragon Pass was opened, the Map in Uz lore p33 indicates that the Grazers extended their influence over the Crossline up to the region of the Building Wall. Hence I find it doubtful that there were any Esrolians north of the Arkat's Hold and New Crystal City before this.
>The modern Orshanti (at least during the time of Sartar the hero) lived
>along the Solthi river, at the northern end of the Footprint. Fragments of
>the clan are likely to live elsewhere, too - remember that Hendriki clans
>can easily reach the size of Sartarite tribes.
I find this improbable. How does their clan structure cope with it? After Colymar's death, the clan had to split itself up fivefold barely one generation of unrestricted expansion.
>>>Borngold the
>>>Usurper's rival and later (sacred) king of the Colymar Barngradus traced
>>>his lineage to a priestess who faced Belintar the Stranger in open
>>>conflict.
>>Assuming you are talking about Garneneva, we
>>do not know that this is an Esrolian Priestess. She could be
>>a Vingan which is perfectly plausible for a Heortling and is far
>>more likely to fight Belintar in 'hand-to-hand' conflict.
>Could be. If my theory has a 40% likelihood, I'd give yours a 25%
>likelihood. A Vingan usually gets an epithet (the Reddest, Red Woman,
>Runaway Woman).
Not so. Heort's Mother is described as a Red Woman and this description comes _after_ both her clan _and_ her description as a Vingan. Whereas if Red Woman was an epithet, she would be described as 'Drenyan the Red, of the Alynx'. It seems that the Red Women were a (obscure) sisterhood of sorts. As for the Reddest and the Runaway Woman, these are both descriptive labels of the same woman (Tarkalor's Mum).
>They don't usually start a lineage.
King Heort was the son of a Vingan. He is remembered by his father because Pop was more important than Mom. Ernaldinni Wolfkiller (KOS p154) OTOH sounds like a worthy ancestor for a Orlanthi to trace his (or her) bloodline back to.
>And Garneneva must have
>been around 60 when she faced Belintar, assuming normal generation shifts
>for her lineage.
Yup. Much more plausible for a Vingan than a Esrolian Priestess (remember the conflict is hand-to-hand).
>In fact, Colymar Book supports the interpretation that the Colymar fled from
>Belintar in person.
They would have been slaughtered if that were so. I assume you mean they fled Belintar's rule.
>The 1300 date comes from the CHDP (p.130).
Which is also the source of the Esrolian tradition and states 'there is no reason for Colymar's departure from Esrolia, save for his desire to live where he had settled'. Now Densesros wouldn't be writing that if he were cribbing from the Colymar's Book as Joerg has alleged.
>"At the place called Centaur Cross" - a cross jointly raised by Belintar and
>Ironhoof around 1350, i.e. about 150 years before the first king list and
>the history intro were put to parchment. Probably the same place, but yet
>without the altar.
The Centaur Cross and the Stone Cross are two seperate Crosses (cf the Map of Kethaela p105 KoS). Since they both lie on the Crossline, it is not impossible for a particular Cross to be labelled as Centaur's Cross. Moreover this puts the origin of the Orshanti dissidents further to the east and means they came from the Volsaxi rather than north of the Lead Hills.
>1315 or 1316 sound very convincing to me [as the date for the
>Colymar entry into Dragon Pass], and the 1300 of CHDP sounds
>like capital Bollocks if taken literally.
We could assume that Colymar and his wife left Esrolia around 1300 or so as this is before Belintar swam ashore which would support Densesros's passage that nobody knows why he left. Then they were invited around 1315 by the Kitori to pick up the Orshanti dissidents a few years later. After all at this time, the benefits of the Pharaoh's rule had not yet become apparent...
>The most problematic statement is "of the Orshanti clan [...] of the
>Hendriki tribe". It is perfectly possible to be good Orlanthi and yet live
>in North Esrolia, with firm ties into their earth worship.
They would not be Hendriki if they lived in Northern Esrolia.
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #563
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