>But this is not a good model for the worshipper : priest ratio because
>it's a training facility, not the real world.
Tell that the profs...
>Those dozen full priests in fact supported 90 students over their
>career, or perhaps 1800 students (assuming 20 years of teaching).
>That's less than 1% priests.
Yes. That's my equivalent for the Orlanth cult. The other, specialized institute had a way higher priest to student ratio.
>Of course, all of this analysis is really begging the question, which
>is: do you want to resurrect player characters?
Me? Not routinely, certainly. But I'd like to have the option without causing all their surrounding culture go open-mouthed at this event.
And, even more so, I want my NPCs to have this option.
>> So what does she [Theya] do when a disease strikes?
>Uses her Chirurgery skill, of course.
You mean, bloodletting and such?
Peter Metcalfe
>The Dara Happan Book of Emperors (an archaic copy of the Fortunate
>Succession) contains maps which are not in the FS. In one of these
>maps, I am reliably informed by one J. Baumgartner that the Last
>Chance took place in Talastar. Since that is a pivotal revolt by the
>Old Day Traditionalists, it follows that the Old Day Traditionalists
>lived in Talastar.
Yeah. So they hid only in Talastar? Nowhere else?
I still think that the Traditionalists lived all over the EWF. In Talastar they had possible help from outside enemies of the EWF; in Kethaela they would have profited from the less draconized environment, without having a real enemy. Somehow I doubt that they would have applied modern terrorist policy (striking also civilian centres - also of allies - of their declared enemy).
Peter on Malkioni influences in Kethaela
>Read what you said. The Praxian Marches were colonized _after_ the
>Trader Princes failed to reach Teshnos in the 1300s. So what are
>you suggesting?
I am suggesting that the Praxian Marches were colonized after the Trader Princes failed to reach Teshnos in the 13th century, by those colonists who had been sent to secure the route. IIRC one or two mediaeval German east colonisation ventures ended up in a similar way...
Peter stated:
>>>And the Trader Princes are the Malkioni Lords of Maniria. They are
>>>not to be found in Heortland or God Forgot.
and I made the mistake to use sarcasm.
Peter correctly states:
>Other sources of Western Influence in Kethaela include:
>1) God Forgot
Yes, the pre-Hrestol Malkioni who missed Malkion's transcendence to Solace. They weren't exactly numerous, or popular, after the Machine Wars. If they had a decisive influence, why not earlier?
> (Heortland is shown as part of the Jrusteli Empire according to Uz Lore)
So is Trowjang, but not Ralios.
>2) The Malkioni of Nochet
Have been around throughout the 2nd Age, without much measurable influence in Heortland.
> (who have been there since Vistikos's time
At least. Probably arrived on Waertagi ships.
> and were numerous enough to riot in the streets in the second age)
The text says "scholarly riots spread into the capital". What makes you think that the scholars were Malkioni, and not Lhankor Mhytes?
1968 proved that it doesn't take many "scholars" (students) to make a city riot.
>3) The Army of the West in Arkat's War ('The civilizing influence
> of the Country has turned the tribal and clan structure into a
> more unified whole reflecting the feudal nature of the Hendriki
> tribe who inherited the rule of the land from Arkat the conquerer
> hundreds of years ago' RQ Companion p24).
A source I used to quote a lot when I presented the Aeolians the first time. IMO they are the source of an obscure subcult of Orlanth, Orlanth the wizard, which formed the nucleus of the Aeolian Church when new Malkioni influences reached Heortland in the early 3rd Age.
>I doubt that the Malkionisation of Hendrikiland was imposed by
>the Pharaoh from above. IMO it was present for a long time
>but only at the top.
I tend to agree. There was a catalyst, though, and like you I doubt it was Belintar alone.
>The reason it does not appear in Sartar is
>that the farmers who were largely untouched by the Western
>influences made the migration.
Spot on. In fact, a lot of the farmers which left Heortland left with the intention to remain untouched.
>Malkioni were in Nochet long before the Trader Princes (cf above).
True. And they seem to have been careful not to spread their creed after the fall of Lylket, Jadnor and Locsil, if not even earlier.
The Nochet Malkioni have been said to epitomize the obscure victim of recurring pogromes.
>[The background to this is over the alleged Esrolian migrations into
>the Grazelands as a result of the Pharaoh taking over. Since the
>population of the Vendref is low compared to the Esrolians and the
>Sartarites, it would seem that Esrolia was not too upset by the
>Pharaoh taking over. Joerg OTOH claimed that the Grazers killed off
>any immigrants]
I said most, or many, not any. They did take slaves.
Peter
>>>Doesn't look like it according to p112 of KoS. Once the people were
>>>subjugated then the Grazers were quite happy to lord over them.
>>Ok. Under Hendroste Goldhand, all intruders were enslaved. Doesn't mean
>>that they were allowed to till the land, though, but that they became
>>menial servants of the nomads.
>If they weren't allowed to till the land then what good are they
>for?
I refer you to the Praxian slave debate. Both the pre-Vendref Grazers and the Praxians don't rely on agricultural subjects (or the loss of control over an oasis would be an existential blow to a Praxian clan).
>Besides KoS explicitly mentions Ernalda as a Vendref diety
>and one who 'allows herself to be cut with plows' KoS p109.
Yes. A source which also mentions the Feathered Horse Queen, so clearly after the Grazers had changed from real nomads to feudal overlords making a pretense at maintaining their nomadic way of life.
>Furthermore:
: 'The Vendref did not suffer under the Grazer's rule, once : they had submitted. [...] and some chiefs actually recognized : and appreciated the value of regular grain supplies' : KoS p112
True again, for the time after they had learned to adapt to the new immigrants. I also have the suspicion that their troll overlords in the lands south of the Crossline were little better than the untamed Grazers they met in first contact.
>Lastly the Grazers are not stupid. They've lorded it over the Oasis
>Folk in their time not so long ago
about 70 years ago, i.e. in hardly any living memory. Not that the Pure Horse people had been dominant during the last centuries in Prax...
>and have tales about when they were Princes in Pavis.
Not exactly. Joraz Kyrem split off from the Pure Horse tribe. I'm not even sure that the Pure Horse people remained allies of Joraz' dynasty, after all he had perverted their purity.
>So why should they get their knickers in a twist if
>some slaves grow grain for their benefit?
Because these slaves dig up the very best pastures to do so.
>>As of 1605, the Grazers have long since stopped keeping north of the
>>Crossline. The lands to the south have become their favourite raiding
>>ground, and like the Pelorians in the Redlands the Esrolites have
>>pulled back their border to create a no man's land between themselves
>>and the Grazers.
>Given that Belintar is now on the throne of the Holy Country, one
>would have thought that he would have taken a stand against the
>Grazers moving into his lands.
Well, IMO the lands in question had been delegated (or forcefully subjected) to Kitori rule (at least as tribute-taking bandit lords), and we know that the Kitori were difficult subjects at any time. Belintar never seems to have taken great interest in the northern border before 1325, when his scouts told him that there lived people in Dragon Pass.
I don't think that the land was more densely settled than modern Sartar - most of the North March isn't either. Neither the March nor Longsi Land are as un-Orlanthi (feminist, or civilized) as the river valleys of Esrolia, IMO.
>Furthermore I would have expected
>some record of this in the Grazer Kings List.
For some reason, Densesros doesn't mention _any_ major events in the Holy Country unrelated to Argrath/prior to the siege of Whitewall. Or did I miss the description, or even mention, of the Building Wall Battle in KoS? (p.147 mentions Fazzur's 1605 foray before the gates of Karse, but not the Building Wall Battle.)
>Moreover I fail to
>see how the Esrolians can 'pull back' their border given that their
>land is densely populated. There isn't any room to resettle the
>inhabitants of that land within Esrolia proper.
There are always the slum quarters of Nochet, and other cities.
>>>After Dragon Pass was opened, the
>>>Map in Uz lore p33 indicates that the Grazers extended their
>>>influence over the Crossline up to the region of the Building
>>>Wall. Hence I find it doubtful that there were any Esrolians
>>>north of the Arkat's Hold and New Crystal City before this.
>>Au contraire, IMO the Grazers started to raid these lands, and bled the
>>farmers dry.
>And the Pharaoh stood by and did nothing while the Grazers
>exterminated the Esrolians between the Crossline and the
>Lysos River? I don't think so.
What could he have done? Annexed the Grazelands, allies of the kingdom of Tarsh, his most useful (only) buffer state vs. the expanding Lunar Empire?
Somehow the offensive military power of Kethaela leaves a lot to desire...
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #572
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