Origins of the Colymar

From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_voyager.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:14:17 +1200 (NZST)


Joerg Baumgartner:

Me>> If the Spear's origin is AA (and I doubt it very strongly), that does
>> not make the Colymar 'dominated by darkness like the Torkani' are.

>I never claimed that.

But you brought up the Black Spear when I said that your posited location for the Colymar was far too close to the Shadow Plateau. If they had lived there, then they would have been dominated by darkness. So why bring up the Black Spear then?

>> So why would the Heortlanders suddenly adopt a radically different
>> system of clans in the ten or so years after the Colymar migrated?

>A clan which has renounced the ties to those who would not follow (or
>rather vice versa, at least in the case of the Malani who seem to have
>been outlawed in large numbers, formed up a clan or even tribe, and
>marched northward).

The sentence isn't complete. A clan, which has X, what?

>>>After switching from the careless "nobody will attack us" mode
>>>of settlement (which seems to have worked with strong patrons
>>>disallowing fortifications - do you expect Vendref villages to
>>>have stockades?) to the Alakoringite hill fort settlement.

Me>> Which does not require any change in clan structure.

>Peter misses the point I wanted to make: IMO many immigrants from
>northern Kethaela had been living as tributaries to the Kitori, not as
>as proud and free Orlanthi as they want to see themselves. IMO the
>Colymar belong to this sort of immigrants (unlike the Malani, who were a
>warband with noncombatants dragged along rather than settlers waiting to
>recultivate the land).

But the Colymar had been granted free passage by the Kitori. Furthermore how does this relate to switching from an unwalled village to a hill fort? What does this have to do with the Heortland Orlanthi having oversized clans?

[snip section about the Volsaxi. Research found a quote which backed up Joerg's claim that it was formed in Tarkalor's time].

>>Thus the Colymar came from near Whitewall.

>If the Colymar had the choice between going west (into Grazer territory)
>or east (into the Quivini hills) this indicates they lived somewhere in
>the Creek-Stream River valley, with opportunities to cross it nearby.

I'm afraid I don't understand. Who said anything about the Colymar having choices on where to settle? They crossed near Centaurs Cross which is halfway between Whitewall and the Stone Cross. This places limitations on where they must come from.

>> There is practically no room for an entire clan (according
>> to you the size of a tribe!) to migrate to densely populated
>> Esrolia and expect to maintain their integrity and to maintain tribal
>> loyalties to a far-off tribe in another country!

>I never claimed that the Colymar came from anywhere south of New Crystal
>City.

You have said they come from Esrolia. They would not be able to maintain their tribal affiliations if they lived in Esrolia. Yet it is known that the Colymar come from the Orshanti, a clan of the Hendriki tribe.

>> Tribes are not measures of Ancestral relations in the Third Age,
>> Bloodlines are.

>That's late Third Age Sartar, a country made up from immigrants. Middle
>Third Age triaties might be called a tribe or a clan with subclans, but
>certainly were based on ancestral relations.

I believe I have quoted before a section on the Report on the Orlanthi that Triaties are ephemeral at best and are not a sign of ancient bloodties. In particular, the Hyaloring Triaty fell apart as a result of the fish marriage (when one clan took wives from people further up the stream to make peace with them). Lastly you cannot call a Triaty a clan with sub-clans when it is clearly stated as being a grouping of three clans.

>The original Colymar tribe was [based on ancestral ties].

I think you are wrong here. The people who made up most of the Colymar left the Orshanti clan for personal reasons and not because of blood ties. Likewise with the Lismelder leaving the Malani and so forth was not based on bloodties but as a result of Kinstrife.

>BTW, when did the (original) Karandoli enter the tribe? They quickly
>received a ruling house from the Arnoring clan after they first held
>tribal kingship, but the mention of the first foreign clan admitted to
>the tribe predates the rule of the first Karandoli king of the Colymar
>by only a few decades, if that many.

If they are full members of the tribe then there is no prohibition on them becoming its leaders. It may cause some resentment among older clans but then this has been a problem in every society.

>Ok, bad wording on my part. I meant clan membership of clans scattered
>among other clans.

Even this clarification is still unclear.

>>>The Colymar severance of their ancestral ties seems to be unusual,
>>>and caused by the extreme situation when they entered a forbidden
>>>land.

>> They did not sever any ties.

>They ceased to contact their (Orshanti clan?) ancestors, who are invoked
>in all important worship services. This sounds pretty severe(d) to me.

AFAIK it merely means that the Bloodlines were cut short so that the Founder was someone not held in common with other clans. Frex Colymar cites his bloodline from Hordos. Before he left the Orshanti clan, he would have IMO a whole stream of ancestors back to some famous person. But he has some cousins among the stay-behind Orshanti who can claim Hordos's father as an ancestor. So to avoid contact with them, he recites his bloodline starting with Hordos.

This sort of thing IMO appears to be done when a clan is trying to get rid of bloodties with another clan and would not be extremely severe (but rather uncommon).

>> They simply formed a new clan which is the basic Orlanthi social unit.

>IMO the atom of Orlanthi social structure is the individual, and the
>basic unit is the hearth, followed by the stead/village over-unit within
>the clan. At least the stead level is how economics work in Orlanthi
>society, and society and economics usually are interwoven.

I was following Greg:

        'The clan is the basic operative social unit.  Smaller units,
        whether bloodlines or households, and larger units, whether
        tribes or kingdoms, all come and go.  But the clan is steadfast.
        It may prosper or diminish, but it does not change its requirements
        and definitions.'
                        KoS p250.


>>>(Note how the Pure Horse People survivors who formed the Grazers
>>>about 65 years before the Colymar entered did the same thing...)

>> Did they?

>They ceased to contact their ancestors, lest they be traced into
>Dragon Pass. (Sort of prevented "Divination" to the clan spirits by
>excommunicating themselves.)

Source? This would require that the Praxians have ancestors in common with the Pure Horse People which seems unlikely to me.

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