God Forgot immigrants from Seshnela, and that debated:
Peter doesn't like the idea that there might be truth to the claim that the original rulers of Dawn Age God Forgot were failed Malkioni. I don't like the denial...
Heortland is shown as part of the Jrusteli Empire according to the map in Uz Lore, but not Ralios:
Well, as long as Arkat's Dark Empire existed, Heortland definitely was not part of the Jrusteli Empire. The cities of Jadnor, Lylket and Locsil had not yet been founded (or re-aligned).
If the author wanted to show where Arkat's Dark Empire was, he could have shaded that part of the Jrusteli Empire after the conquest.
Note that the marked territory is said to be an ally of the Empire.
We know that the people of Heortland were part of the besieging forces of the Machine wars rather than of the besieged forces.
Could it be that the map shows the situation before the conquest of Arkat's Dark Empire, and shows those lands as allies which allowed the Jrusteli traders access to their markets (and libraries)?
Nochet firmly in God Learner hands?
> "Several [God Learner] incursions [...] ranging from
> [...] to scholarly riots (as in Nochet, in 780, 826, and 886, which
> even spread to the capital)..."
All it takes to make an incursion is send some propagandists to stir up impressible and naive scholars-in-training. Agents provocateurs. Provide logistic help to hothead dissidents. Worked with the Baader-Meinhof gang...
> The riots were in the streets of Nochet save for one particular
> riot which spread to the Dragon's Eye. Presumably in that battle,
> the Lhankor Mhy were convinced by the latest God Learner leaflets
> and started rioting as well.
"Perhaps" all these riots were like this, and the one which spread the farthest was the one which touched a really sore problem?
>>1968 proved that it doesn't take many "scholars" (students) to make a
>>city riot.
> There would have to be a larger population of malkioni to support
> all those students at Nochet Uni, methinks as I doubt native esrolians
> are enrolled.
Nochet Uni is the Great Library of Lhankor Mhy annex. I don't see any need for a Malkioni-run university in Nochet, not any more than a Stygian temple to LM besides the Great Library.
>>In fact, a lot of the farmers which left Heortland left with the
>>intention to remain untouched.
> I would rephrase that slightly and say that many of them left
> rather than have their new found freedom taken away by the
> re-establishment of Malkionized government.
What new-found freedom? Did Belintar lift Arkat's Command, or what?
The Hendriki supported the OOO until Belintar did a stunt to convince (or force) them to take his side. Do you say that the Hendriki nobility had lost privileges for opposing Belintar, and that the non-Hendriki (or non-noble) hill people had a surge of freedom?
Wasn't there a civil war in Heortland, continuing from Belintar's struggles well into the middle of the century?
>>>Malkioni were in Nochet long before the Trader Princes (cf above).
and I countered that after the Machine wars they'd keep low profile.
Peter again:
> They would have some influence in Porthomeka and Karse IMO. The
> RW parallel I'm thinking of are the Jains of India who are traders.
>>The Nochet Malkioni have been said to epitomize the obscure victim of
>>recurring pogromes.
> What need for the pogroms?
If this question was asked more often there would be less pogroms. A pogrom occurs whenever anything goes wrong and can be blamed on a minority.
Old Day Traditionalists:
>>So they hid only in Talastar? Nowhere else?
> My guess is that they were to be found in Southern Peloria and
> were disposessed of their old positions of power by the expanding
> EWF. They would not to be found in Dragon Pass proper as the
> adoption of draconic ways was popular and made with the consent
> of the leaders. Hence I do not think they will be found in
> Kethaela.
The dissidents who objected against the widespread acceptance of draconic powers and draconic forms of their religion started as early as in the 580s, when the EWF still was restricted to Dragon Pass. They "went into hiding" by keeping their minds and cult practices to themselvs. Did these survive unchanged? Of course not. The EWF is probably at least as much to blame as are the God Learners.
>>I still think that the Traditionalists lived all over the EWF.
> This presumes a uniform cultural composition to the EWF which I
> doubt existed.
I had the impression that the Traditionalists included members even of normally hostile cults working together against (well, hiding without fingering each other) a common enemy. IIRC in Peloria they included the cult of Lodril as well as Orlanth. Apparently they took in whoever kept the memory of the Good Old Times alive.
Vendref and Grazers
Peter asked what good non-agricultural Vendref slaves would be, and I
countered:
>>I refer you to the Praxian slave debate. Both the pre-Vendref Grazers
>>and the Praxians don't rely on agricultural subjects (or the loss of
>control over an oasis would be an existential blow to a Praxian clan).
> Yeah but having grain grown for you is a good thing or else many
> nomads wouldn't be enslaving farmers both in glorantha and in the
> RW. The first age Hyalorings did become Emperors of Dara Happa.
Yes. In the Real World cases usually the nomads expand into the agricultural territory, and not vice versa. Where settlers move into nomad territory, the nomads usually are pushed out after a while. Look at Pavis County.
The First Age horse nomads entered farming country and terrorized the farmers. I don't know if they were interested in the grain, or in the luxury of the city palaces.
>>>Lastly the Grazers are not stupid. They've lorded it over the
>>>Oasis Folk in their time not so long ago
>>about 70 years ago, i.e. in hardly any living memory.
> But virtually contemporary in mythic terms. Even the Sartarites
> feel the need to avenge a horse theft that took place 200 years ago.
But the Grazers had mythically severed themselves from their former history. In the Sartarite example, there was a continuous history.
>>Not that the Pure
>>Horse people had been dominant during the last centuries in Prax...
> Still doesn't preclude them from knowing the value of helots.
Only from having them, and from knowing how to treat them.
>>>and have tales about when they were Princes in Pavis.
>>Not exactly. Joraz Kyrem split off from the Pure Horse tribe.
> I doubt this. I think that he combined the leadership of the
> Pure Horse Tribe, the Zebra Riders and the City of Pavis in
> his hands.
Then what's the point in creating the zebras if he kept the horses? IMO this marks a deep split between the horse people and Pavis.
>>I'm not even sure that the Pure Horse people remained allies of
>>Joraz' dynasty, after all he had perverted their purity.
> Well they did seem to be willing to oppose Gerak Kag attacking
> Pavis.
Along with all kinds of other Praxians. They opposed a huge troll presence in their territory. Don't tell me that the bison, sable and impala people in that battle were allies of Pavis...
> Furthermore no dissension with Joraz is noted when the
> Zebras were created so I doubt that it was such a big deal.
> After all the purity of the Pure Horse People is still intact.
The cross-breeding left the purity undamaged? A strange concept.
>>>So why should they get their knickers in a twist if
>>>some slaves grow grain for their benefit?
>>Because these slaves dig up the very best pastures to do so.
> Who said they are digging up the best pastures? The Vendref
> farm where the Grazers tell them to.
In that case it's a wonder they harvest anything. What do horse riders know about where to farm?
I stated that the Grazers started raiding the lands south of the Crossline long before 1605. Peter stated that Belintar would have taken means against them.
I said:
>>Well, IMO the lands in question had been delegated (or forcefully
>>subjected) to Kitori rule (at least as tribute-taking bandit lords), >>and
we know that the Kitori were difficult subjects at any time.
> The Kitori live over in the Troll Woods.
Now. After Tarkalor and the Volsaxi and Sun Domers pushed them out of what remained of their lands after the Creek-Stream River had swamped most of the best lands north of the Plateau, and the Lead Hills covered more of it.
> We are talking about lands
> on the other side of the Shadow Plateau.
I am talking about the lands north the Plateau.
> So why would the Pharaoh
> give the lands to the Kitori (who were not subject to the Pharaoh)
> when he has the Uz of the Shadow Plateau?
Would he mobilize the Uz of Shadow Plateau against the Kitori? Could he rely on them to keep still when human troops march against the Kitori trolls?
I doubt that the uz of Shadow Plateau were very happy about Belintar's rule, fair or not.
> Futhermore this goes against the Pharaohs known principles of
> governance (ie hive everything off into sixths).
Which explains deviances like Porthomeka, Karse and Refuge, I suppose.
>>Belintar never seems to have taken great interest in the northern
>>border before 1325, when his scouts told him that there lived people
>>in Dragon Pass.
> Given that he was fighting a war in 1313 to 1318 and that Dragon Pass
> was known to be open only around 1625, that bespeaks a rapid reaction
> time on the behalf of the Pharaoh.
Hey, he dug the New River in 1318, meaning that he was there at that time.
Peter expects to find raids in the Esrolian march mentioned in CHDP.
I said:
>>For some reason, Densesros doesn't mention _any_ major events in the
>>Holy Country unrelated to Argrath/prior to the siege of Whitewall.
> The Grazer's Kings List is most complete in Jalk's Book so the
> arguement of Densesros omitting Holy Country events fails methinks.
On the other hand, if southern raids were as regular an exercise as Gloranthan Military Experience suggests, nobody would have mentioned that.
Resettling the farmers of the lands north of the Building Wall:
>>There are always the slum quarters of Nochet, and other cities.
> They are transformed from productive farmers to proles. That is
> going to put a huge crimp on Esrola's grain surplus.
Happens all the time, anyway. I suppose that occasional outbreaks of fire, violence, or plague keep the city population manageable.
>>What could [the Pharaoh] have done? Annexed the Grazelands,
>>allies of the kingdom of Tarsh, his most useful (only) buffer
>>state vs. the expanding Lunar Empire?
> It depends when you think this took place. It can't have happened
> before 1325 as the Grazers are only discovered then. In 1350, the
> Pharaoh has made a border with Ironhoof (to whom the Grazers own
> allegiance) at the Crossline. So it can't have happened after this
> time. (My opinion is the Grazers expanded after 1616 ST...)
Tarsh was founded to stop the Lunar advance (roughly at the Death Line). The following years regularly saw action between both sides. Only Sheng Seleris' interlude stopped the Lunars from expanding (replaced that threat with Pentan raiders...).
IMO the Grazers started to raid southwards already under Hendroste Goldhand. Hendroste Goldheart or his successors may even have pursued an active resettlement policy from the Marches.
> Between 1325 and 1350, the Lunar Empire is far away as Holay
> and the Grazers were not allied to the Tarshites. So Belintar
> shouldn't have any problems with reprisals against the Grazers.
Apart from ongoing internal problems in Heortland, a major Lunar invasion was turned only by surprise magics. Taking into account that Arim's kingdom of Tarsh was centered on Bagnot (now a border city of Lunar Tarsh), the Lunars were not much further from the Holy Country than they were in 1601. Furthest must have been something of a border town in those days.
>>Somehow the offensive military power of Kethaela leaves a lot to
>>desire...
> Only in recent years. I do feel that during the fourteenth to
> the sixteenth century, the Kethaelan army was good.
Well, the Ditali remained unconquered throughout the time. Even if Belintar's army was good, it didn't take the offensive. The only active expansion attempt (into the Mournsea, when the Closing had been lifted) was a failure. I wonder why this move wasn't supported by land maneuvers?
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #578
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