>Me>> If the Spear's origin is AA (and I doubt it very strongly), that does
>>> not make the Colymar 'dominated by darkness like the Torkani' are.
>>I never claimed that.
>But you brought up the Black Spear when I said that your posited
>location for the Colymar was far too close to the Shadow Plateau.
>If they had lived there, then they would have been dominated by
>darkness. So why bring up the Black Spear then?
Hey, both the Karse people and the Volsaxi live in the direct neighbourhood of the Shadow Plateau. They were dominated by the Kitori, but they didn't necessarily adopt troll gods into their ancestry. Having a few minor Darkness ties is fun, claiming that they inherited the strong Kitori ties to Darkness would contradict all published sources.
>>> So why would the Heortlanders suddenly adopt a radically different
>>> system of clans in the ten or so years after the Colymar migrated?
>>A clan which has renounced the ties to those who would not follow (or
>>rather vice versa, at least in the case of the Malani who seem to have
>>been outlawed in large numbers, formed up a clan or even tribe, and
>>marched northward).
>The sentence isn't complete.
Sorry, incomplete cut'n'paste job.
A (splinter) clan which has renounced the ties to those who would not follow practically has adapted to life in smaller communities. Apparently old man Colymar enjoyed himself surrounded by all his kinfolk (and practically every clan member becomes an in-law at least to every other clan member within two generations), but when he died too many ambitious younger people wanted the top seat, so they split up into five clans.
In the case of the Malani, it looks like the immigrants maintained their closer kinship ties in their smaller clans. When the Malani marched through Colymar territory, they must have had about 4 or 5 clans (not counting the Orlevings, who may have traveled separately - Jeff?).
>>Peter misses the point I wanted to make: IMO many immigrants from
>>northern Kethaela had been living as tributaries to the Kitori, not as
>>as proud and free Orlanthi as they want to see themselves. IMO the
>>Colymar belong to this sort of immigrants
>But the Colymar had been granted free passage by the Kitori.
Probably for resettlement within their lands. It didn't matter to the Kitori where a tributary clan worked to produce their tribute. No sane person would have suspected this migration to move across the Cross Line.
>Furthermore how does this relate to switching from an unwalled
>village to a hill fort?
Unwalled village: no defensive measures against bandit warlords (= Kitori tribute takers). I doubt that the Vendref are allowed even slight fortifications which would help them fend off their horse-riding lords. They are to be dependent on the guard service their lords' warriors provide.
This is how I envision the tributary clans under Kitori domination as well.
>What does this have to do with the
>Heortland Orlanthi having oversized clans?
The entire Alakoringite system is based on frequent warlike interaction - on an equal basis - with neighbouring clans (preferably of a different tribe). Oversized clans mean larger homogeneous portions of land, i.e. less raids per capita, and a certain reliance on the borders to hold tight. Unless, by flukes of feudal or marital land acquisition, parts of a clan settle somewhere else.
>>>Thus the Colymar came from near Whitewall.
>>If the Colymar had the choice between going west (into Grazer territory)
>>or east (into the Quivini hills) this indicates they lived somewhere in
>>the Creek-Stream River valley, with opportunities to cross it nearby.
>I'm afraid I don't understand. Who said anything about the
>Colymar having choices on where to settle?
I was writing this away from my sources. I seem to recall a comment that of those who crossed the Crossline first, those who went west (apperantly into the easier lands osf southwestern Kerofinela) encountered the Grazers and were enslaved (or killed, or driven off), while those who went east into the hills became the Quivini. The Colymar were the first to go east.
>They crossed
>near Centaurs Cross which is halfway between Whitewall and
>the Stone Cross. This places limitations on where they must
>come from.
Unless they were moving inside of Kitori-dominated territory. Remember that this was in 1317 or earlier, i.e. when the region covered by the Lead Hills today was prime arable land in the river valley, the land west of it was not yet a swamp but probably fair pasture and useful soil, and the Creek-Stream River ran south from Wild Temple to somewhere north and slightly west of the Obsidian Palace before turning east past the Plateau. The distance between the Creek-Stream River just north of the Plateau and the Marzeel River was more than twice the distance between the Runnel River and the Creek-Stream River. (The Lysos River lies too far in Esrolia indeed, but away from my maps I tend to confuse the two, since both have become tributaries of the New River.)
>>I never claimed that the Colymar came from anywhere south of New Crystal
>>City.
>You have said they come from Esrolia.
I meant: from a region north of New Crystal City reckoned to be part of Esrolia when not claimed by the trolls of Shadow Plateau.
>They would not be able to
>maintain their tribal affiliations if they lived in Esrolia.
But they could if they lived somewhere on the Runnel River, or between Runnel and Creek-Stream River.
>Yet it is known that the Colymar come from the Orshanti, a clan of
>the Hendriki tribe.
It is claimed. I am not very convinced of this claim, for reasons I have stated over and over again.
Even if that is true, there is nothing to keep part of the clan from straying from the main migration or settlement of the clan. Others have postulated a Colymar presence in faraway cities (Whitewal
>>> Tribes are not measures of Ancestral relations in the Third Age,
>>> Bloodlines are.
>>That's late Third Age Sartar, a country made up from immigrants. Middle
>>Third Age triaties might be called a tribe or a clan with subclans, but
>>certainly were based on ancestral relations.
>I believe I have quoted before a section on the Report on the
>Orlanthi that Triaties are ephemeral at best and are not a sign
>of ancient bloodties.
They happen to result in recent bloodties though... People a generation or two dead are part of one's ancestors, aren't they?
>In particular, the Hyaloring Triaty fell
>apart as a result of the fish marriage (when one clan took wives
>from people further up the stream to make peace with them).
Did the Narri cease to (try to) take wives from the Lonisi? Did they regard this breach of the Triaty as destroying its basis?
>Lastly you cannot call a Triaty a clan with sub-clans when it is clearly
>stated as being a grouping of three clans.
Ok. So a grouping of clans can be called a Triaty. Is this a fully fledged tribe, or some intermediary construct?
>>The original Colymar tribe was [based on ancestral ties].
>I think you are wrong here. The people who made up most of the
>Colymar left the Orshanti clan for personal reasons and not because
>of blood ties. Likewise with the Lismelder leaving the Malani and
>so forth was not based on bloodties but as a result of Kinstrife.
Kinship ties also include in-laws - an extra-clan marriage is as much about making two clans answerable for injustice done to the other as it is about forming a new hearth. Intra-clan marriages are possible when a clan is large enough (in fact, the Colymar couldn't have grown if this were not the case).
>>BTW, when did the (original) Karandoli enter the tribe?
>If they are full members of the tribe then there is no prohibition
>on them becoming its leaders. It may cause some resentment among
>older clans but then this has been a problem in every society.
The problem with the date is that the fifth king of the Colymar received the Hiroding clan as first external clan into the tribe, and already the sixth king of the Colymar is a Karandoli (not of the Arnoring lineage) who accepted the Runegate tribe into the Colymar. All the other extant clans (which may be the crux) get a mention which king accepted them into the tribe (Enjossi, Tree Triarchy, Varmandi).
The seventh king (Robasart, an Arnoring, i.e. descended from the original Colymar clan) has the same ancestors as has Ortossi, the 11th king, and of the Karandoli clan. Robasart is said to have destroyed the Karandoli. Apparently his family took over the remains and continued the clan under their chieftainship.
>>Ok, bad wording on my part. I meant clan membership of clans scattered
>>among other clans.
>Even this clarification is still unclear.
I say that clan membership won't be forgotten easily even if a clan suffered a diaspora, or was split apart by conquest or similar, _as long as the clan spirits, including many ancestors, still receive active worship and veneration_.
This is why I believe that Maniski the Stickpicker was eligible to foster Venharl's son Argrath, even if he lived among the Starfire Ridges rather than on the northern slopes of the Quivin Peaks (as had Venharl's lineage, during and probably even after the secret vendetta against the Jenstali). IMO Maniski is part of a scattered group of Karandoli who were accepted as permanent guest refugees among a friendly clan. The Starfires (Orlmarth) are descended from the original Colymar clan. So are the Arnorings, and the Karandoli leading families. Ancient kin ties may have helped get them a refuge and eke out a life as stickpickers, but true to their past. I suppose that many stickpickers will have similarly glorious ancestors to make them proud despite their social and economical standing.
>>>>The Colymar severance of their ancestral ties
>>> They did not sever any ties.
>>They ceased to contact their (Orshanti clan?) ancestors, who are invoked
>>in all important worship services. This sounds pretty severe(d) to me.
>AFAIK it merely means that the Bloodlines were cut short so that
>the Founder was someone not held in common with other clans.
Cut short = severed. They ceased to belong to whichever (over-)clan they belonged to before, probably in the way and for the reasons you described.
>This sort of thing IMO appears to be done when a clan is trying
>to get rid of bloodties with another clan and would not be
>extremely severe (but rather uncommon).
Even if Orlanthi clan worship is not a Daka Fal mode of worship, lost access to the accumulated magical properties of the ancestors is a hard measure IMO. This would limit friendly spirits to be contacted by the godi to very few, and thus put a dent into their magical powers.
: 'The clan is the basic operative social unit. Smaller units, : whether bloodlines or households, and larger units, whether : tribes or kingdoms, all come and go. But the clan is steadfast. : It may prosper or diminish, but it does not change its requirements : and definitions.' : KoS p250.
Bloodlines and households may not last forever. Well, clans won't either.
IMO Orlanthi wisewomen (and -men) will have access to bloodline spirits in a RQ-Viking-like fashion. Even if a bloodline may die out, while it exists it is a firm unit. I doubt that clans are much more resilient towards outside dangers than a bloodline.
A household often is part of a stead community. I'll try to write up a stead community for a cameo on my webpage, due out by autumn this year I suppose.
The Pure Horse People
>>ceased to contact their ancestors, lest they be traced into
>>Dragon Pass. (Sort of prevented "Divination" to the clan spirits by
>>excommunicating themselves.)
>Source? This would require that the Praxians have ancestors in
>common with the Pure Horse People which seems unlikely to me.
The Praxian shamans have captive ancestral spirits of the Pure Horse People which they used IMO to sniff out the last surviving members of this tribe. By fleeing into taboo lands and undergoing a rebirth/adoption by Ironhoof the Grazers thwarted these shamans.
>You postulated a part of one clan living far
>apart from the rest of the clan and said that was the norm
>for Heortland. I am questioning this assertion.
IMO Heortland, at least the plateau, has a different concept of land ownership than the highland clans. More formalized, put down in a book, etc.
This may lead to one (thegn) family holding land in very different locales, be it through marriage, feudal land grants or conquest. I doubt that these holdings would be separated from the family's clan.
>>a larger clan has more access to their joint ancestors magic.
>Ancestral magic does not have a great impact in Orlanthi society.
>It's sole appearnace appears to be in reciting bloodlines and
>claiming kinship. Which seems to have little impact on the size
>of a clan, methinks.
I disagree. While usually not practising straight Daka Fal ancestor worship, ancestral magic makes up a fair part of bloodline and clan identity. Things like the ability to breed great black bulls aren't just a consequence of possession and favourable pasture, but also a heroic achievement of one's forebears.
>>How many of the Sartarite immigrants are descended from the Hendriki
>>proper, and how many are descended from one of the other "four large
>>tribes" which make up the population of Heortland? IMO the Hendriki are
>>the dominant, most populous tribe of Heortland (of the size of a tribal
>>confederation), with the other three something of a relic.
>
>Given that the land is ruled by Malkioni, why would they not have
>an roughly equal division of tribes with the Volsaxi in the
>Marzeel Valley,
A Divination from Greg told me that neither Volsaxi (too recent) nor Kitori (too strange) were considered one of the "four large civilised tribes" of Heortland. This leaves the Hendriki as only named tribe in Genertela Book. They are said to be unusual in many regards, which I have picked up and elaborated upon. I'd prefer that we discuss this larger picture rather than point by point remarks...
>the Solthoni from Jansholm to Backford and so forth.
>Trying to make the Hendriki the dominant tribe merely because
>they were the only tribe in ages gone by misses the point that the
>other three big tribes had to come from somewhere.
IMO they were formed as federations under a warlord to counter the stronger unity of the Hendriki after the social unrest caused by the incursion of Alakoringite had been averted by the Hendriki. The lack of a centuries-long tradition of these new confederations made them less stable than the Hendriki (over-)tribe IMO, and relegates their tribes mainly to a common denominator rather than an active political and magical power.
>But (back to the point) there IMO should be only minor differences
>between Orlanthi in Sartar and Heortland or (to a lesser extent)
>Sartar and Tarsh. Claiming a novelty such as sub-clans seems to be
>far too drastic for my tastes.
Then how do you organize a single tribe with 100,000 or so members? In clans of 3,000 to 5,000 members?
(Heortland has a population figure of 500,000. Substracting minorities like the coastal Pelaskite clients, the Kitori, and the Volsaxi, this still leaves an average of 100,000 people per tribe.)
Sub-units (perhaps including triaties) sound reasonable. IMO "the Orshanti" are such a larger sub-unit rather than a Sartarite-sized clan.
Peter will disagree: _____
>>Generally, Heortland is about as inhomogeneous in its composition as the
>>worshippers of Orlanth along the Upper Tanier River
>I'm assuming Joerg means a river other than the Tanier in Seshnela
I mean the Upper Tanier in Ralios. I used it as a comparison, since the variation in Ralios and in Heortland is similar.
>>> Furthermore Questlines shows the Volsaxi tribes occupying territories
>>> roughly the same size as the Sartarites.
>>The Volsaxi tribes were formed as full tribal entities only when their
>>tributary and suppressed status by the Kitori was lifted.
>So why did they not form oversized clans like those you claim
>for the Hendriki.
Because they were closer to the Alakoringite tradition, and had the example of the Sartarites right by their side (even amidst their ranks).
The oversized clans and tribes don't work anywhere where Orlanth Rex is dominant IMO. It takes a strong priesthood to administer these, a priesthood able to withstand the whims of a petty chieftain (and his not so petty magic).
>>In the early the Third Age, the Kitori were dominating the valleys of
>>Creek-Stream River and Lysos River south of the Crossline.
>The Lysos River?!?
Runnel River. Sorry.
>Somehow I doubt
>the Kitori extended that far. I'm willing to concede as far as the
>Creek-Stream River which before the Pharaoh came flowed on the Kitori
>side of the Shadow Plateau.
Consider that the land below the Lead Hills was lowland before 1318.
Jeff Richard chimes in helpfully (wrt EWF Traditionalists) but states:
>Peter and Joerg debate and debate and debate:
and debate. Nothing new there...
>At least historically, it seems that more important than having grain grown
>for you is the access to pasturage.
My impression too. And that's where farmers and herders used to clash again and again.
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