>>Which does not in of itself require [the Hendriki] to be the largest
>>tribe with the other three being 'relics'. We hardly know any of the
>>tarshite clan and tribe names but it does not mean that we have
>>to expand those we do know of into supertribes.
>The Genertela Book says "four large tribes". It also says "Population
>500,000".
And because you thinks four tribes of 100,000 each is strange, you wish to replace it with one tribe of 350,000 and three other tribes mere 'relics'. That is what I was criticizing when I said supertribes.
>Anyway, if you disagree with my conclusions, give me a model which allows
>the Hendriki tribe to dominate the cities of Jansholm, Backford, Durengard
>(the capital) and Duchamp, and possibly the port cities of Leskos and Vizel
>as well, without exceeding Sartarite tribal size by one order of magnitude
>at least.
_If_ I am going to do so, I will need evidence that the Hendriki dominate all those cities. So far I have not seen any evidence for that and thus I don't see the need in trying.
>If you agree that the tribes of Heortland may have about 80,000 to 120,000
>members each (or even as few as 30,000), tell me how large the next level of
>organisation would be, and how you call it.
The Kingdom obviously.
>Tell me how large a clan would be.
The same as a normal sartarite clan.
>Don't tell me that all of Heortland is organized like Sartar, because that
>doesn't work.
Don't create strawman, Joerg. I stated further on that they used malkioni methods of rule. You even responded to that!
>>>Then how do you organize a single tribe with 100,000 or so members? In
>>>clans of 3,000 to 5,000 members?
>>Not unusual.
>A tribe with 100,000 members and clans the size of Sartarite or Aggarite
>tribes is not unusual?
Where did you get the information on the Aggarite tribes? But more to the point, a 100 000 strong tribes means that we have 25 clans of 4 000 each. I do not believe this to beyond the capabilities of malkioni administrators at the tribal level.
>>Tarsh was a Tribe in Arim's Day
>How was it organized?
A tribal government over the clans apparently.
>>and really only became a Kingdom in the days of Yarandros.
>What are your sources for this???
KoS p118. Look it up if you don't believe me.
>>I suspect the population in those days was between 100 000 to 200 000.
>IMO Tarsh was a tribal confederation rather than a tribe in the Heortling
>sense.
The Tarshites _are_ Heortlings and said to be formed from the uniting of clans (KoS p117). Arim is explicitly called a king _and_ not a Prince/Warlord which he would be _if_ Tarsh was a tribal confederation.
>>Furthermore the Hendriki
>>do not use traditional orlanthi methods to organize their tribes
>The Hendriki are one tribe. The one with the dominant western influences.
>The other tribes are more traditional Orlanthi, though not necessarily all
>of the same detail structure as are the Sartarite tribes.
Source for all this? If it is your campaign, then I am not going to take this debate any further as I am only prepared to discuss published information in this debate.
>>but rely on Malkioni methods of rule (ie instead of clan councils, you
>>have a noble to tell people what to do).
>The Hendriki are also said to be the most freedom-loving tribe of all
>Orlanthi. They won't have (much) thraldom, and they won't let a feudal
>system keep them from taking part in moots, and from having councils with
>real power to influence decisions.
Source for all this? Everything I've seen says the Heortlanders are western influenced.
>>But the neighbouring Sartarites came from Heortland and
>>would have also formed the superclans, would they not?
>IMO the over-clans only work with a) a long tradition to back them up, and
>b) a geography which doesn't isolate single clans from all contact with
>other clans.
One notes that Quivini geopgraphy does not isolate single clans from contact with all other clans. In the absence of any documentation for the superclans, I am inclined to reject their existance for Heortland.
>I still fail to see why it is wrong to have O'Neills on both sides of the
>Irish Sea, i.e. to have clan-sized groups identifying themselves as e.g.
>Orshanti in somewhat separate locales.
Because the O'Neills are not Orlanthi and such is not shown in the Report on the Orlanthi.
>>and that the Colymar clan (when it crossed the line) is an
>>example of this.
>That the Colymar is an example of part of a splinter clan separated
>from the majority of its clan.
It also took in large numbers of people from other clans as you acknowlege. I doubt these were in the minority. Furthermore there was ten years of unhampered growth which would have done wonders for population growth.
>>Given that _all_ tribes and clans (not just the Malani) who have migrated
>>north are from Heortland, why then have none of these tribes and clans
>>the super-clans and sub-clans that you postulate?
>Because no full clans migrated northward, but only splinters?
True for the First Wave but _not_ the Second Wave according to the Colymar's Book. Ergo your thesis fails.
>>Unless they are members of the tribe. And your postulated super-
>>and sub-clans does little to stop this as the hostilities will
>>now occur between the sub-clans...
>But it is harder to continue hostilities while you visit the same temples.
Au Contaire. The subclans will have their _own_ temples. Thus they will not visit the same temples.
>Or, after being separated by the tides of warfare and transhumant
>resettlement, through other clans' lands.
In which case the subclan leaves the clan.
>>The Colymar's own History makes this claim.
>Written at a time when the Colymar tribe sought to regain the favours of
>Prince Sartar lost when Ortossi denied him to build a city in Colymar land.
>Claiming a distant kinship may have been helpful.
As I have said before, I see little need to traduce it as an invented fiction. You have not shown clear reasons why we should do so and your proposed solution involves problem-riddled hypotheses.
>>(namely the required existance of hitherto unheard of subclans,
>like the Karandoli of Pavis city?
Who were not counted by the Colymar themselves as being a clan at the time. Nor did the worship of their ancestors make themselves known to the Colymar tribe.
>Let me see if I understand you correctly: you have sub-tribes within tribes,
>and I have sub-clans within clans. If I shift my terminology from
> sub-clan -> clan -> tribe
>to
> clan -> sub-tribe -> tribe
>you'll be happy?
Yes. But I should point out this screws up your theory for the Colymar's origins (Orshanti clan of the Hendriki tribe).
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #590
Powered by hypermail