Luckily, some useful discussion can go on.
I said:
>>The Hendriki are one tribe. The one with the dominant western influences.
>>The other tribes are more traditional Orlanthi, though not necessarily all
>>of the same detail structure as are the Sartarite tribes.
>Source for all this?
KoS for the traditional Orlanthi information.
Genertela Book, Maniria, the entry for Heortland.
: Four tribes of humans, all civilized Orlanthi, live here. The Hendreiki : tribe has been altered from its Orlanthi basics by heavy Malkioni : mercantile, religious, and social impact. But although changed, the : Theyalan love for political freedom remains.
This is quite explicite to me: Four large tribes, one of which has accepted Malkioni traits. Three haven't.
RuneQuest Companion, "The Holy Country", Heortland section:
: The people here are mostly farmers of Barntar's cult. They worship : Orlanth as king of the gods, and Ernalda as his wife. Their culture : is labelled Orlanthi, and follows the pattern of typical hill : barbarians who worship the Lightbringers. The civilizing influence : of the country has turned the tribal and clan organization into a : more cohesive whole reflecting the feudal nature of the Hendriki : tribe which inherited the rule of the land from Arkat the Conqueror : hundreds of years ago.
How the West Was One information on Heortland, some of it available on the web, other in the character write-ups, excerpts from which may have appeared on a digest or daily, too. Some were used by MOB in his Wyrm's Hold scenario (Tales 13).
Plus volumes of RuneQuest Dailies late '93 and early to middle '94 in which some of my wilder ideas were cut to size by frex Alex and Martin Crim, with additional information provided by Sandy. I've been thinking on this stuff for some time, and my campaign as a source comes only on a back burner.
I take from your incredulity that you haven't bothered to take issue with the stuff on my website. I give my sources, and quite often also how I made my conclusions, there. Try
http://www.toppoint.de/~joe/hcframe.html
or
http://www.toppoint.de/~joe/heortmain.html
as starting points. I appreciate productive input...
>If it is your campaign, then I am not going to take this debate
>any further as I am only prepared to discuss published
>information in this debate.
Trust me to base my campaign on as much published info as is available to me...
David Cake stepped in Re: history of the Kitori
>Joerg has got onto one of my pet subjects, the Kitori.
I wondered when you would enter the fray...
>>In the Dawn Age, the Kitori started out as a human
>>darkness-worshipping tribe providing a warlord of the Second
>>Council.
>Absolutely. At this time many of the Kitori lived on the Shadow
>Plateau. The OOO allowed non-trolls to settle there, and one of
>those who took up the offer was Varzor Kitor, founder of the
>Kitori tribe proper, who attracted most of the darkness worshipping
>humans of Kethaela to his new tribe.
They lived upon the Plateau?
Ok, until the destruction of the City of Black Glass, the black sands covering most of the Plateau and smothering most of the growth there needn't have been there. Shadow Plateau has a bit more elevation than that of Heortland, but would be lower than most of Dragon Pass, so there is nothing to worry about the climate (rainfall would happen around the Obsidian Palace). The wandering shadows would reduce the amount of insolation, but needn't disturb the growth of whatever plants the Kitori farmed (being darkness-oriented, I like to think that they eat a lot more roots than grains, but this needn't be the case).
>>The Kitori stepped into the gap left by the trolls in the God
>>Project as worshippers of Darkness, returning into the favour of the
>>rulers of Dorastor.
>While I have heard this theory before (principally from Stephen
>Martin, who may be its originator) this is not the case.
Peter pointed to an extremely obscure mention published in Lords of Terror. Of course, that was edited and much of the new parts were written by Stephen.
I prefer the Kitori to have sided with the rest of Kethaela, and to have helped Arkat. Who but they would actively pursue the cult of Black Arkat "somewhere in Heortland", or, when Greg was asked directly where to find the House of Black Arkat, "in Nochet".
>The history that Shannon and I settled on had the Kitori
>staying loyal to the OOO, and retreating with him to the
>Shadowlands.
I prefer that version, too, and will happily support it. Peter's reference didn't really convince me either.
>>It is hard to tell when the Kitori took in trolls into their tribe.
>Our working hypothesis was that the Kitori retreated to the Shadow
>Plateau with the OOO. He had granted non-trolls the right to live there
>early in the first age. The current Kitori lands were the lands of a troll
>tribe who allowed the humans to settle, not the other way around.
What do you call "current Kitori Lands"? Their refuge in the Troll Woods or the land they occupied before Tarkalor and his alliance sent them to exile?
Let me see: If the Kitori humans of the First (and Second) Age lived atop the Shadow Plateau, they would have had to leave it after Belintar smashed the Obsidian Palace and covered all the Plateau with a thick layer of infertile black glass dust.
They needn't have restrained their territory to the top of the plateau even then. The Kitori started out as a warlike tribe, and still have this reputation. There's nothing to stop them from collecting regular tribute from the human farmers to all sides of the Plateau which provide access up or down (easier towards the north, because the land rises around the plateau), or at least trying to.
>They fought alongside Arkat and Kwaratch Kwang against Palangio.
And probably already earlier, during Palangio's siege of Shadow Plateau (which lasted at least 40, maybe up to 70 years).
>The first age Kitori are violent warriors
>(worshipping a Zorak Zoran variant called Zolan Zubar, a cult now extinct
>or absorbed into ZZ), but the Kitori after the Gbaji wars are more known as
>Argan Argar worshippers - capable of fighting, but equally at home trading
>or farming.
They can't have been exclusively warriors in the First Age either without lots of farmers to support them. Probably they were warriors capable of farming, but most at home in raids and warfare.
>>It is a known fact that the mixed tribe of trolls and humans ruled the
>>Haunted Lands north of Shadow Plateau, south of the Crossline early in the
>>Third Age.
>I saw the foundation of the modern Kitori taking place in the mid
>second age. It is a conscious attempt to make the human Kitori part of the
>ruling troll clans, by a magic 'marriage' between the tribal king and troll
>queen.
Did they marry into one of the ruling clans, or into a clan with ambitions to become a ruling clan? What were the motivations for the troll clan to accept this magical marriage? Neither profit nor a fair number of fierce warriors would overcome the typical racial antipathy without there being some urgent need, unless they had the Only Old One as active matchmaker.
>By the mid second age, when the modern Kitori are founded, the
>survivors of the original Kitori have gone from being nearly wiped out, to
>being the leaders (or at least the valued front men) of the Only Old Ones
>rather large Argan Argar trade empire.
It makes sense. While Orlanthi don't have the urge to kill trolls on sight, they feel distinctly uneasy in their presence. This may lead to a few more profitable deals, but will prevent more potential deals than this increase can make up.
>Yes. The Kitori now control the troll woods, but at one stage
>controlled a lot more.
If they did so already when based on top of Shadow Plateau, I can't see any reason why the territory controlled (taxed) by them would not have extended west of Shadow Plateau.
>The Kitori consist of several troll clans, one human clan (called
>'the Human clan'), and several mixed clans. I believe the troll clans are
>the original inhabitants of the troll woods, the human clan is the original
>founding clan of the modern Kitori, and the mixed clans are clans that
>joined later as refugees from the Pharoah.
Mixed clans: so when the Pharaoh made his conquests, refugees approached the Kitori, and were assigned to troll clans willing to take in humans? I'm not sure I like this late date as the origin of the mixed clans, IMO they should have been in existance already earlier, so that the refugees could have followed the earlier mixed clans' example.
(Sounds a bit like the Kitori policy was: "You want to remain a human only clan? Welcome to our tributary clans, you'll settle there, give annual tribute, and we'll protect you when we can. You want permanent protection? Do as the ... did, and join a troll clan. They will take care of you, and you of them.")
End of The Glorantha Digest V5 #592
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