Of course. What I wrote came out very much the wrong way. I'm sorry about that. I'm was a bit irritated at having my words misrepresented.
> >Hmm? The only absolute I have seen in this debate is
> >on the line of "no, that is wrong".
>
> Read the thread again. Some people were discussing it as being
> applicable to all Malkioni Saints.
- -..
> >But, since my
> >position has been unclear, I repeat: I like to use
> >one aspect of bodhisattvas as a model for one aspect
> >of malkioni saints, that is a postponement of their
> >respective state of grace in order to help others on
> >the same way. OK?
>
> You are doing it again! In the last post you said you wanted
> it because it would be a useful bone of contention between
> the differing sects. And now it's back to all saints are
> postponing Solace.
No, I'm not. You are the only one who has mentioned _all_ saints in this debate. Right now it seems to me that you have read mine and others' arguments as meaning "all Malkioni saints are exactly like buddhist bodhisattvas". That is not what I'm suggesting.
If I had meant an unqualified "all" I would have written all. I use bodhisattvas as a model. A model does not have to be all-encompassing.
For further qualification: even if the model were all-encompassing, that wouldn't mean that the malkioni themselves knew about it. They can still argue to no end about the nature of saints.
> >Also, as I have explicitly stated, I use one model,
> >like this one, until a better comes along. If that
> >happens, I adopt the better explanation.
>
> Given that this is largely a matter of taste, I simply am not
> interested in changing your mind.
So, you say my model is wrong because some saints are known to be in Solace, that you have your own cool idea but don't want to expand on it since I have a differing opinion from the beginning?
If you do have a good idea I want to know about it and why it is better than mine. If there are details which don't work in my model, I want to have either suggestions how to make it work better or another model which works better. A flat "this is wrong" doesn't help. Now, since I have not written any "all malkioni saints" arguments as you have read it, it seems possible that you did not really write that, so let's get on with the actual subject.
> All I set out to do was to
> illustrate some of the problems of the parallel with what is
> known about Malkionism.
So far I have seen one single argument which is troublesome in my model: I agree that saints like Malkion and Hrestol are problems. As for the other saints, the sources I have access to don't say enough about whether they are thought to be in Solace or not.
If they are, the bodhisattva model falls immediately, no argument there. That also means that the premise that Solace is completely beyond the world, that those who have gone there cannot be contacted in any way, must go.
The inaccessibility of Solace is the primary reason I started using the bodhisattva model. I have assumed that it is an important distinction. A plain assumption that saints have gone to Solace clashes with this and doesn't seem right, unless someone comes up with a very good reason for it.
If a cool idea comes up though, I think it's fine to drop the inaccessibility. The seven heavens sound intriguing, but I would like to know more before I accept a major change.
> >Where do the average dead Malkioni in good standing go?
>
> It depends on how good they were in life.
So, can ancestors be contacted in some way, or is that something which is the mark of saints? If they can, since holier saints are harder to reach, "bad" ancestors would be easier to contact than the exemplary malkioni ones. Odd, but perhaps consistent.
> >But that is no problem in my model, since they, as saints,
> >are not in Solace yet.
>
> If they are not in Solace, then how do they gain the ability
> to work miracles?
That's a mark of a saint: the miracle making. But I would like to know the reason why you think they have to be in Solace for that. Also, the worship saints get of course maintain their miracles. Which brings up an interesting question: are living saints worshipped?
Note: when I say worshipped I mean as patron saints, not as henotheist deities.
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