>>There are sorcerers among the Orlanthi?
>
>RoC p.169: "Initiates of Chalana Arroy may become shamans
> or even sorcerors, ..."
That comes straight from the GoG. To assume that Orlanthi use sorcery just because it is not forbidden for Chalana Arroy (who is willing to accept anyone, even chaos). Or are orlanthi chaotic too because CA and Humakt allow chaotics?
Read Strangers in Prax, or King of Sartar, who present more recent positions on the orlanthi.
And who would teach sorcery? Just wondering...
BTW, the Arroini ducks are amusing, but certainly they don't exist in my Glorantha.
>I really don't think so, Jose. Illumination would be a kind
>of Revelation, and would surely make a *huge* difference
>in someone's life. One of my players has a Rokari Knight
>who's met Humakt and has experienced the divine nature of =
>
>this god. This, IMG, is one large step towards illumination =
>
>for the character. He believes in One Invisible God AND in =
>
>the divinity of Humakt. The coexistence in his mind of =
>
>these two irreconcilable beliefs draws the Knight towards =
>
>Illumination. Also a large source of anguish for the
>character.
What I meant is that a malkioni believer will have (IMO) it easier to continue with his/her faith than a theist. That means you can continue with your personal life, as before. Of course your spiritual self will be deeply changed, but your social standing may even increase as your understanding of the divine increases.
Your player is certainly in deep trouble, but most stygians manage to believe so without difficulty. And many of Arkat's followers did so without getting illuminated. I don't see it necessary to illuminate him to resolve his troubles.
I agree with Frank Rafalsen in the importance of culture and surroundings in the Illuminating experience. However there must be a common ground, so that when two illuminates argue about the world, they understand each other easily. Just like the Digest. And that will allow flames, religious wars and general carnage.
Peter keeps repeating his arguments, instead of addressing other people's ideas.
>Peter>>I'm bemused. What do doubtful and fabricated saints have to do with
>>>Boddhisvattvas?
>
>>If I remember correctly, local gods and some "dubious" candidates are
>>included among the boddhisatvas.
>
>This is not unique to Mahayanna buddhism and can be found in
>Christainity, Islam and Hinduism among other religions. Case
>in point: Utnapishtum, a sumerian hero who survived the flood
>ends up with a name change in the Bible.
And? What I say is true, gives us a workable model (that you don't like because of your fixation with "the saints are in Solace") and breaks the Western Middle Ages parallel..
>>Arguing as a rokari iconoclast, we know that Solace is the final bliss, from
>>where you don't return. If a prayer to a saint is answered, it is not by
>>those blessed who are in Solace, but by demons bent on misleading the
>>faithful from the narrow way to Solace.
>
>So the miraculous manifestations (which a Rokari would know by
>heart) of Saints Rokar and Hrestol are naught but demons? How
>does one distinguish between a manifestation from a Saint in
>Solace and a manifestation of a fake Saint?
What miraculous manifestations? They were taken to Solace, which shows their piety and holyness. Then you have inspired men and women following their steps, but nothing that does not come from inside ourselves, following Malkion's teachings. Of course that those who take Rokar's example are satisfied with their place in life. And a true follower of Hrestol's way will be able to do things that others think is impossible. And someone advanced enough in St. Gerlant's path will see his sword flame. But what is that obsession with having that come from a holy saint who is already beyond this world?
>
>>And my Otkorioni "know" St. Orland is not in Solace, but in his Cloud
>>Castle (somewhere in the Heavens)
>
>What prevents the Otkorioni from saying that the Cloud Castle is
>a part of Solace? When synthesizing traditions, people are more
>likely to conflate topics rather than keep them seperate and pure.
Because you can visit Cloud Castle, of course (which is argued by Rokari as a "proof" that Orland is a false saint), and contact those there, as you can talk (with some risk) with one of your ancestors who is serving among ZorakArkat's legion of the Death. And "everyone" knows that those in Solace cannot be contacted.
That is the root of the problem. You accept the statement: Saints are in Solace, while ignoring "All those in Solace cannot be interacted with (or something like that)". I prefer to add some people say...
>>>If they are not in Solace, then how do they gain the ability
>>>to work miracles?
>
>>From the Invisible God, of course. It is Its power anyway. If you are a
>>Holy Saint, you can go to Solace, or work as a conduit between the IG and
>>Glorantha, to help the faithful.
>
>What prevents Saints from doing both (ie going to Solace _and_
>working as a conduit)?
Nothing. That is why I think you have both theological positions in Malkionism.
>Being in Solace didn't stop the Invisible God from creating the
>world.
I thought Solace was created by the IG, so he cannot be in. Basic metaphysics. Pantheism anyone? In Glorantha it is better to ask Pantheism, where?
>Jose Ramos:
>
>>You have the KoL. Then the prophet Malkion gives his laws.
>
>Malkion founded the Kingdom of Logic IMO.
I think he just gave them laws when Logic stopped being self-evident for the inhabitants. But my knowledge of old sources is scarce (being optimistic).
I hope to have shown that the Saints are in Solace can be a contested affair in the West, while the fact that those who are in Solace cannot be contacted, but for the Saints, is generally accepted (and has been declared quite strongly as truth by GS and SP). Personally I like my model (or competing models, to be fair), and it is what I use IMG.
Jose
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