>You see, even when it is made clear to him that he is illuminated he
>doesn't realize the implications. Implications that you claim are the
>essence of illumination.
Why should Oddi realise the implications of his illumination? Illumination is the starting point of the discovery of a whole new world of conciousness. I don't think it instantly grants total awareness of all it's implications and all the possibilities it opens up. These are things that the illuminate discovers over time.
>Now I don't argue that illumination doesn't change Oddi, I only claim
>that the change comes from the powers and not the other way around.
>And I also claim that the changes of personality comes from Oddi's
>interpretation of the implications. Of course in the saga his
interpretation >is helped by a lunar.
Obviously Oddi has changed and so we can expect his personality to change. Illumination will change him, but I don't think the direction or character of those changes is inherently determined by illumination. Illuminates can have just as wide a range of personalities after illumination as before, if not more.
We seem to be arguing at cross purposes. You are arguing that :
That's fair enough. Gaining powers obviously gives him opportunities he didn't have before. However you don't seem to have left any place in this for the insights of illumination.
If,as you say, the insights come from the powers too, then surely there would be people walking around who have the powers but none of the insights? How can you guarantee that having a given power will always lead to a particular insight? What if the person in qustion is a bit thick? Or just doesn't worry about it?
>I think, and in this I believe I'm supported by the article on
>glorantha.com about Humakt, that there isn't one illumination, there
are
>many states of illumination (RQ sight was one, I believe).
Not according to Greg and Sandy. As far as I can tell they say that Illumination is a form of mystical insight into the nature of conciousness and the world, while RQ Sight is a magical perception.
>The only thing I have to figure out now is whether this is a Godlearner
>view or a illuminate view. :)
Didn't you just say they are the same thing?
>How can a man make a lightening bolt hit his enemy only by shouting a
>prayer? Same thing. The ability to throw lightning bolts give a lot of
>'knowledge' about the order of things too....
Why should it? If all it takes is a shout, then why bother worrying about why and how it works? In your moddel there would be lots of heroes who heroquested extensively, gained lots of powers, and have absolutely no idea why they got them. It would be possible to heroquest successfuly by just learning the procedure by rote and going through the motions.
You are effectively saying that faith, belief, divine revelation and trenscendent conciousness are irrelevant trappings that actualy have no value in Glorantha. They just happen afterwards and have no causative influence on myth or magic.
I'm afraid that such a model holds no particular interest for me. There are enough games and game worlds out there like that already. The causative role of myth and the religious experience which drives Gloranth is what attracts me to it.
Simon Hibbs
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