Saints, Orlanthi wizards, semantics

From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_toppoint.de>
Date: Mon, 18 May 98 22:41 MET DST


Peter Metcalfe and others argue about semantics re: Illumination. I don't want to enter this point by point process, so just a statement.

I guess we are in a similar situation as are people who interact with Pratchett's librarian from Unseen University, in this case our "Ook" is "Illumination" which can mean a couple of different things, from the Cults of Terror (RQ2) definition (btw, is the cult of Gbaji/Nysalor on the web?) of a nifty rules instrument for powerful people to the more differentiated phenomena in more recent publications.

Peter proposes "Illumination in the sense of profound spiritual insights" to be called another way. Perhaps we should use a descriptive adjective (Theyalan Illumination for the phenomenon during Nysalor's lifetime, or Yelmic Illumination for the Dara Happan concept prior to or during early Nysalor, for instance)?

Nikk Effingham:

> I believe that Saints also do not reside in Solace for the reason
> that I believe Solace to be the unreachable and unprovable.

Well, one of the first canonized saints (Hrestol) showed us that one can attain Solace even breaking the rules. I guess that he is able to bestow a blessing even though in Solace is just another case of his breaking the rules.

However, it isn't necessary that a Saint's blessing resides with the Saint. IMO a Saint in Solace may well have left behind a teaching to those devout followers of his way. This teaching may be aquired by personal questing, perhaps with a vision of the Saint to boot. Malkioni don't deny that people have spirits, since they know about ghosts (and how to turn or use them).

Don't say that their spirits aren't going to Solace, but their souls are? In that case, a Saint's spirit may well be strong enough to resist dissolution, and be able to bestow the Blessing. Otherwise, it might be a shadow of the former Saint hovering around the Blessing left to the faithful.

> Unlike
> most other Gloranthan afterlives, Solace cannot be found anywhere on
> the Spirit Plane or Hero Plane, and never should IMHO. No HeroQuests
> to Solace, no Divine Interventions from the Invisible God (or, at
> least, none that a sceptic could not attribute to pure luck). In
> effect, IMG I never want it to be proven that Solace exists, because
> I feel that Malkioni are the only religion with true "faith".

The Kralori draconic afterlife isn't exactly proven either, but I agree that Solace should be accessible by a one way trip only - if you get there, you stay there.

This gives way for a nice heresy spawned by Dormal's failure to locate Old Brithos - to some religious fanatics, it is obvious that Zzabur finally duplicated his father's feat. Just like Malkion took the city of Malkonwal bodily into Solace, so did Zzabur take (most of) Old Brithos bodily into Solace, never to come again. In the long run, even the Brithini saw the light. Now it is up to ambitious magi to follow that path, because the End of the World is Nigh (Hero Wars prophecies).

A possible place for this could be Fronela, where there is a real sense of doom. Rather than concentrating on how to overcome the troubles of the world, magical energies are focussed on this transcendant way. Maybe some will make it in time?

A similar thing helped depopulate Dragon Pass around 1000-1042 ST, when several draconic subcults/movements managed to attain full dragonhood, and disappeared from the land (see KoS, Argrath Book).

Mikko Rintasaari
> I know I probably shouldn't post this...

Has been done before. My burn marks weren't that bad for this...

> There seems to have been at least one important orlanthi sorcerer we
> should know about. And that is no other than Sartar, the holy man.

Who came from the Hendriki tribe in Heortland, well known to have incorporated many Western traits. IMG, there are small communities of Aeolians also in Wilms Church (IMO Wilms was an Aeolian, too) and of course in Boldhome (there's nothing in Sartar which cannot be found in Boldhome as well).

Orlanthi don't like sorcerers. If there are Orlanthi who practice Western magics, and yet are accepted in their society, obviously they are no sorcerers, but wizards, or priest-magicians, or watchamacallit.

> Sartar's power has been described in KOS as stemming from his
> "eventual mastery of the motion/change rune"

This is a hero-power similar to (but exceeding in power) Hofstaring Treeleaper's leaping ability, and has little to do with conventional Gloranthan magic. But then, Humakti or Yelmalian gifts fall into a similar category IMO.

David Dunham:
> I believe Sartar was an Issaries hero. I'm pretty sure Greg has come
> out and said so. Even if he hadn't, Change is one of Issaries's runes,
> and the one Sartar had mastery of.

I agree that Sartar probably had strong Issaries ties, perhaps even was a cultist. (His Grazeland shrines may have been sanctified by friendly Issaries priests after Sartar had them built - Sartar is renowned as an architect as well, even though it probably was Wilms who did much of the planning and work).

It seems that Sartar was fluent in all Lightbringer cults, including Flesh Man/Daka Fal (his descendants' worship) and Ginna Jar (at least after his Crown Test). He abstains from direct violence (as if upholding Chalana Arroy strictures), works to increase trade (his original mission from the Pharaoh), does the Orlanth quest for King of Dragon Pass, walks his kingdom in disguise (Trickster ruler), and acted as lawspeaker and advisor (LM).

I see that Chris Bell has thought along these lines, too, although within the framework of da Roolz...

I don't see how this diversity would stop him from possessing sorcerous magics. Especially since the cult of Issaries is as open to sorcery as is Chalana Arroy. (It would be strange that a cult dealing in exchange of magics would forbid one kind of magic and deal with the most different magics of other cults...)

Jose Ramos about Orlanthi sorcerers:
> And who would teach sorcery? Just wondering...

The Aeolian Church of Heortland, perhaps through its less church-oriented disciples in Karse; the Carmanian cult of Invisible Orlanth for another corner of Glorantha, and in Orlanthi Ralios bordering on Safelster there are lots of Stygian or Henotheist churches willing to allow barbarians to be brought to their truths, especially Otkorion. In Wenelia the Trader Princes don't exactly forbid their subjects to participate in their rites either. And then there is Aggar, with the City of Ten Thousand Magicians, and probably similar EWF places which were conquered before the Golden Horde formed. An Orlanthi willing to join a different place's society may well find a way to learn sorcery as well. An Orlanthi relying on home sources only will have no opportunity unless the missionaries come into his lands.

Julian Lord asks
> (Are the Aeolians orlanthi, BTW? Many among them would think so,
> wouldn't they?)

Definitely. IMO their church is derived from a strange regional subcult of Orlanth in Hendrikiland, Orlanth Aeolus or Orlanth the Wizard, which came to prominence by 1315.

OTOH, the Chalana Arroy sorcerers are nowhere stated to be Orlanthi. They may as well be Safelstran or Dara Happan/Lunar adherents of the cult. Arroin sorcerers using healing spells somehow are contrary to the idea of a spell-less healing, no? (I won't say that Arroin's healing is unmagical in nature - few things are in Glorantha - but the cult shouldn't have spells which work pronto.)

Jose on Malkioni Saints
> What miraculous manifestations? They were taken to Solace, which shows
> their piety and holyness.

A stated fact for Hrestol, at least.

> Then you have inspired men and women following their
> steps, but nothing that does not come from inside ourselves,
> following Malkion's teachings.

So the power to set a sword blade to flames whenever drawn comes from within the follower of St. Gerlant?

BTW, is there an accompanying geas for this gift? I.e. will this blessing work if the blessed person commits serious breaches against the laws of chivalry (which is what Gerlant epitomizes, IIRC)?

(And no, this is not intended to better a character's chances for survival...)

> I thought Solace was created by the IG, so he cannot be in.
> Basic metaphysics.

Depending on which sect you ask, the IG is either aloof and distant, or ever-present in all of his Creation. IMO most Malkioni will agree that Solace is closer to the IG than the mundane (or even spiritual) world.

Peter Metcalfe:
>>Malkion founded the Kingdom of Logic IMO.

Jose:
> I think he just gave them laws when Logic stopped being self-evident
> for the inhabitants. But my knowledge of old sources is scarce (being
> optimistic).

I agree with this view. The myth of Aerlit and Warera seems to imply that the foundling Malkion who survived Umath's rage was carried by friendly waters across the Neliomi Sea to the Kingdom of Logic, and raised by the people there. (Quite similar to the myth of Faralinthor and Esrola, BTW, with Choralinthor the surviving child - was Umath near-sighted so that he overlooked the children he orphaned, or did he have a big soft spot despite his rages against lovers?)

Ian Welsh
> However I do wonder if Gloranthan mythology gives
> lions the kingship/leadership qualities the RW myth does.

To the Carmanians, definitely yes. Probably inherited from the Seshnegi along with chivalry.


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