I've always thought that the core myth of Elmal is that he stays behind and protects the community when Orlanth departs. Orlanth is the one who returns with the Spark of Life. Elmal may gather together scattered sparks that still remain (and may have a Hill of Gold myth related to this) until each in turn goes out, but they are not the Spark of Life, just the last sparks of the dying world used to keep the community going until Orlanth returns.
pm> This is based on the assumption that the Vanchites are worshippers of Elmal based on a comment in CiP that there is no Sun Dome Temple at the Hill of Gold. IMO the Elmali who do not live in Vanch would not know of or think important the HoG myth.
I would not make this assumption. At this point, it is appears that the Vanchites do not particularly honor the Sun God and this is why the Hill of Gold has little mythic significance (and hence no reason to have a temple there). They may acknowledge whichever Sun God the dominant culture of the time demands (Yelm when DH rules, Elmal when Orlanthi rule), but place no mythic importance on it. As my contribution in the Enclosure II HiG stories indicate, the importance for Vanchites is what they can scavenge/salvage from others, including the occasional quester to the Hill of Gold. Other cultures, of course, find the Vanchites shifty and not to be trusted.
pm?>How can they know the story where Antirius wins when they know that >such a thing has never happened?
But Antirius does win--he just has to be wounded and die to do so. After all, Antirius is the Bearer of Justice and justice died. So the only way to bring back justice is to go to the Underworld to recover it.
David Cake>The Orb is the source of Justice, and Antirius is the source of Justice.
Peter notes that the Orb is the source of Authority. As such, it is an imperial relic, a symbol of the ultimate authority of the Emperor. Antirius is not the source of this--Authority comes from the Emperor (Yelm or his annoited successors). Antirius as the Bearer of Justice, answers and obeys the word of Authority (for that Authority is the source of Justice in the Yelmic view). When called upon by the Emperor or would-be Emperor, he must obey (otherwise he breaks the laws and is unjust). Thus, he goes twice to the Hill of Gold to support the Emperor and the Emperor's quest to recovery Authority.
If the Red Emperor, for example, was to lose his Authority, he might be able to call upon Antirius to accompany him to the Hill of Gold to recover that Authority (and it ideally would be recovered in the form of the Orb). Anyone else attempting to go there to recover the Orb would likely fail, because they are not Emperor and thus cannot command Antirius. An excep tion was with the 10 Princes, but I suspect there was something more to that quest than we know about--something that has long since been forgotten.
pm>To postulate that Antirius was experimentally heroquesting in a response to the loss of the Orb is quite frankly awful. He quested for the Orb because the enemies had it on top of the Hill of Gold.
I agree that he did not heroquest. I don't believe that he went there because the enemies had it--he went there because the Emperor called upon him to support the Imperial Quest.
Nick Davison asks -
> Can anyone provide me with a few details on whoever carries
> out the Engineering work for the Lunar Empire please?
Pam Carlson has some good thoughts on this. As Pam notes: "Hwarin Dalthippa's worshippers excel at building roads and bridges." One of the subcults I added to the cult of Hwarin Dalthippa was the College of Engineers, specialists particularly in building the roads that now begin to crisscross southern Peloria. Their magical skills were largely ritual enchantments.
Jane Williams>We know of fairly strong links between the Red Headed Women
and the early
Vingans. I agree that the origin of Vinga had naturally red hair, but
suspect this was
unusual among the people of the time. Not unknown, but unusual, or it
wouldn't be
remarked on. I would guess that the foreigner Beren(eth) had red hair, and
passed it on to his
daughters, along with strange foreign ideas like women fighting.
There seems to be an association particularly between Red Headed women and southern Peloria. The Vingans and the Berenethtelli are among the examples (though I believe in the latter that it is Redalyde who is the red head, not Beren). The goddess of southern Peloria, Reladiva (who may or may not be Redalyde), is I believe a red head. There was also a small culture called the Balurings in the early First Age who dwelt along the Red Wyrm river who were red-headed. The Lunars have been able to tie into this ancient southern Pelorian tradition, first with Hwarin Dalthippa and later with Hon-eel, both good red heads.
jw> What does puzzle me is the significance of red hair in Glorantha. The
Lunars have
a thing about red-headed Pentans. The Orlanthi have a thing about
red-headed
women (but not men?) Why? What is so special about red hair?
It's the color of blood for one thing. And the ancient earth/land traditions of southern Peloria at least had a strong sacrificial aspect where the priestesses (red heads of course) led the sacrifices. I believe that Hwarin invoked this ancient tradition at the Battle of Mirin's Cross when she raised certain dead gods and defeated the Kynnelfing Alliance. (She may also have used this ploy to either bring the Vingans to her side against the Orlanthi or to take them out of the battle.) Later Hon-eel invoked this tradition and reestablished the sacrificial rites in Holay.
Harald
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